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Jesse Prince Tape Four

Tape 4, August 25, 1998 (Continued from Tape 3)

Lawrence Wollersheim and Jesse Prince

L: Why are you told to lie about who you are, what you're doing? What is the reason?
J: I wish I knew.
L: You just lie because you're told to.
J: Instantly.
L: Let's go on.
J: [Reading] "#4"Scientology has not stopped its abusive practice and is totally incapable of reforming itself." I think I just kind of covered that a whole lot earlier. Question is, [Reading] "Please describe any knowledge you have of the following situations, #1 any fraud or deception used to get money from members using their credit cards or loans from lending institutions, or their families." I've just seen it repeatedly done, specifically at Flag, where a person would be told they are not at a flat point on their auditing, and get sent to the registrar. The person would already come with no money, they will have exhausted all of their money already. There was a routing form that Scientology put these people on. My point, or check in there was cramming, where you just look at a person's file and make sure that the auditing, or the practices that they were getting were done. At which point they would get sent on to the registrar. The registrar was after me, but I just know the nightmares and the horrors that happened to people once they got to them registrars. I do have a friend, Thomas Randhoff, who was a public Scientology, who told me a horror story about going to the registrar as a public Scientologist, how they got him to use his credit cards, call his parents for money, so that he could get all of these urgently needed services based on his personality analysis test. He was also unduly influenced because he was an understudy of Chick Corea for a couple of years. He had that influence, too. Chick is constantly pushing him into, so he definitely ran into some difficulties with Scientology earlier on, based on their reging practices.
L: So, would you characterize the way that they, I mean, when you say they're not at a flat point, means that they're not complete, means they're not complete?
J: Right.
L: Is there a danger there that would be conveyed to the person. Is there some sort of fear, or it is, well, you're not complete, and it would be nice of you got this auditing, but there's no big thing.
J: No, the idea is that you're in personal danger, you're not able to mentally function like you should unless you have this. You're open to unseen forces having an effect on your life in a very detrimental way.
L: So the person believes that something bad will happen to him if he doesn't give them more money?
J: Yes.
L: Did you ever hear of amounts of money that people would sign over when they believed this, that they had to give them more money?
J: A 12 1/2 hour intensive, I believe at the time I was doing it, was like $8,000.
L: For 12 1/2 hours it was $8,000? Do you believe that the people that were doing this believed that they really had to get them to sign it, or do you believe that this was money motivated?
J: This was money motivated, for the organization. The organization each week has to have its stats up. It has to each week to more than it did last week. It has nothing to do with the individual or anything like that. It's about getting more, doing more.
L: So you mean, the director of income of the organization might look at all the people that are receiving services and kind of look at the ones that they might target who are in the middle, who they might tell these things, you're in danger to, to get these people to get even more money?
J: Right. They regularly go through active pre-clear files, which is basically anyone that is on lines there are getting services. The case supervisors, and this is another point of, it's just so funny that they just brought this up in the deposition about who would be allowed to see a pre-clear folder. The case supervisor goes through and lists in the summary for the registrar, what the person had, gives them an estimate of how long they think he's going to need more, and then they figure how much it's going to cost, and call the person incessantly. It's a never-ending process.
L: Have you ever seen a sales person look in a person's PC file?
J: Yes.
L: Can you name the person.
J: No, but I seen it as a standard practice. I've seen it so much at Flag.
L: You mean this was not a rarity that these sales people would look inside the PCs folders?
J: On no, not a rarity at all.
L: It wasn't a rarity. Why would a sales person be looking inside the folders?
J: For a tech estimate, to look at the program a little more. To see how much more money he could get.
L: OK. Let's go on with the next one.
J: [Reading] "Anyone who was fair game or had their reputation destroyed by Scientology." The people that I know who were definitely fair game was even mentioned..
L: They actually said it within the organization, that somebody was fair game?
J: Yeah.
L: Who said?
J: Marty Rathbun, David Miscavige.
L: Who did they say was fair game?
J: Lawrence Wollersheim, Gerry Armstrong .
L: You actually heard that. What time did they say this? What year?
J: This was during the period of time where there was litigation going between these two litigates.
L: For years Scientology has been saying they canceled the fair game, they don't do that anymore, that doesn't exist, and you actually heard them call Lawrence Wollersheim and Gerry Armstrong fair game?
J: Yep.
L: Anything else on that, any other people that you heard them..
J: Somebody re-wrote the fair game policy. I remember I was there when that happened, because the argument being is that, "Yes, there is still fair game, but public-relations-wise there are some things that are `misinterpreted' in the original policy, so we'll take them out, but the meaning is there, what you do to these people who are fair game."
L: Was this altered with L. Ron Hubbard's approval, or was he dead by them?
J: I was say he was pretty incoherent by then. That was right around all the probate time, all of this kind of stuff. I do believe that Vaughn Young is the person that wrote it, re-wrote it.
L: This is just a little off where you're going. Do you know about guns being stored at Scientology?
J: I know that all the security guards, over the booth, they have little booths built all around the property, and they all have weapons. I know weapons are stored in gun cabinets down in the main security office, and I know that they are all weapon trained.

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