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Jesse Tape Five

Tape 5, August 26, 1998 and August 27, 1998

Lawrence Wollersheim and Jesse Prince

L: Did regular Sea Org members, were they taken out to fancy restaurants?
J: Never, never, never.
L: Did they have these little trips and outings where everything was paid for?
J: Never.
L: How many -- so, just a small group of people at ASI and RTC that are being given these enormous privileges.
J: Well, no. It was actually ASI that had enormous privileges and then, over time, it started with RTC and CSI. L So, the top people, Miscavige was spreading the wealth to keep loyalty or whatever and the normal Scientologists have no idea.
J: No clue.
L: They just think everybody's working and suffering and there were actually these top executives were actually told to hide what they're spending and what they're getting.
J: Yes. Don't show others. Don't talk to other staff about how much money you make, you know. Don't be flashy, buying a bunch of shit because if you do, you'll lose your position.
L: So they had to spend their money secretly and discreetly. They would go on vacations. They'd take a bunch of their staff members.
J: Always dressed with perfect Gucci clothes, all this kind of crap, you know. The most expensive.
L: Okay. Let's go on with the next one then.
J: [Reading] "Any coercion for economic convenience or security reasons to induce already weakened, infirm, or ill persons to buy dangerous additional auditing?" We did that one.
L: OK.
J: [Reading] "21. Scientology child abuse, child neglect, improper health care, supervision or education for children?" I think I pretty much covered that extensively yesterday on the tapes.
L: Okay.
J: [Reading] "22. Any type of physical or mental abuse of staff members including such things as the RPF/Rehabilitation Project Force, beatings, confinement, excessive work detail, denial of adequate food, threat, and coercion?" Well, yes. This is like the order of the day. Um, well RPF, you were always constantly threatened with the RPF if you really were non-compliant or really just were not doing what you could do, and we all know what the RPF is. But the other tortuous thing that L. Ron Hubbard came up with just before he finished losing his mind and died was this running program where a pole, a special pole, was erected in the middle of the desert in the hot sun and it was painted a certain color. And you were made to run a certain distance away from it but around it in a constant circle, in one direction one day, another circle another day, and you were told to keep you attention on the pole while you were running. I've seen people just go into a state of physical collapse because of this.
L: How long would they make people run?
J: Twelve hours a day.
L: They'd run for 12 solid hours?
J: They'd go around in a circle, yes.
L: And what was the purpose? Was it, was it people that were doing well that would run?
J: No, people that were having the most difficult time.
L: This was a punishment.
J: Punishment, extreme punishment.
L: And what was the purpose that they said that running the pole would do?
J: Bring them into present time.
L: OK. All right. That's the reason, is because they weren't in present time and so running for 12 hours -- were these people in condition to run for 12 hours?
J: No.
L: What happens if they fell down? They stopped running?
J: There was a helper that came out and just helped them to keep going around the pole.
L: They literally kept you moving the full 12 hours whether you couldn't move --
J: They called the running program, ICE would come out there and keep - get you going along.
L: If they had to drag you, would they drag you?
J: No, I don't know if they did that.
L: Okay, but they'd keep you moving for the full 12 hours.
J: But I know David Miscavige, when he came to David Mayo, when he put him on the running program, his punishment was that he had to run until you could just see his head going around the circle. In other words, until he'd run a rut into the path.
L: That's what Miscavige said, "I want him to run"
J: Yeah.
L: You heard that said, "Until all you could see was the top of his head from the dirt"? Was this done for punishment or was this done to help a person?
J: Punishment.
L: It was strictly punishment.
J: Under the guise of help, but it was punishment. I mean, it was obvious what it was.
L: Did you ever see anyone helped by this thing?
J: No.
L: Did anyone become more in present time?
J: No.
L: Become enlightened or spiritually -- This was a punishment program.
J: You knew you were in big trouble when you were told you had to go on the running program.
L: Were people exhausted at the end of 12 hours.
J: That's an understatement.
L: Tell me what you saw after 12 hours.
J: People barely able to move. After a few days of that, just laying stiff in isolation now 'cause they're sick, you know. Just stare out in the desert in that damn sun.

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