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  • Brainwashed pigeons where new AA members REALLY come from

    AA (more precisely, 12-stepping of ANY kind) is a quack religion which has been shown by EVERY objective study against other methods or no treatment at all to be the LEAST EFFECTIVE. This even includes a definitive analysis by a TRUSTEE of AAWS, George Vaillant, who went into the study with the intent of proving it worked. To his dismay, he was forced to concede that it worked no better than NO TREATMENT AT ALL, and had an APPALLING (his word) DEATH RATE of 3%/year, 5-6 TIMES that of other methods.

    http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-effectiveness.html

    However, the real crime does not take place in the "meetings" but happens in the way the large majority of new members get there in the first place.

    Two months ago, I had a friend who went into a well-known "treatment" facility voluntarily with dual diagnosis, bipolar and alcohol (2+ sixpacks a day for 10-15 years). We thought she was going to get treatment for both after the initial detox.

    Instead, for the entire 28 days, the so-called "treatment" consisted of ONLY sleep deprivation, limited contact with the outside world, and 8-10 hours a day of AA/NA/EA meetings. The meetings were all staffed with "counselors" whose ONLY professional qualifications were that they were 12-steppers in good standing. No discussion of alternate methods was permitted, and criticism of the AA religion was not allowed in these "classes".

    Her psyche was brutalized by having to confess, over and over, her powerlessness and inability to control her own life (step 1), and her insanity (step 2). She was made to say she was an "alcoholic every 30 seconds or so, and had to turn her life over to the "doorknob" or the "group". She had long written assignments to spell out every one of her sins, failings and weaknesses ("defects" they are called in AA) and then had to debase herself by reading them to a roomful of strangers.

    These processes and techniques are called "brain-washing" and indoctrination, designed to break her will to resist so that her mind could be filled with 12-step crap. I know all this happened because she told me it did; I visited her whenever they would let me.

    She went into this facility opposed to AA and came out a good little zombie. She had the slogans all memorized. I watched her whole attitude and demeanor shift over the 28 days. When she got out she immediately turned her back on all of us who had stood by her through all this, because we were just "normies" who couldn't really "understand" her like all the addicts could.

    I then researched this bizarre organization for six weeks to find out what the hell had happened to her and was absolutely sickened by what I found. This is in actuality where they get 50-75% of their new "pigeons" (AA word for the new suckers) - the thousands of institutions who charge $15,000 EACH to turn 1-1.5 MILLION people who were coerced into these "facilities" into 12-stepping, mindless acolytes, EVERY YEAR. Most are coerced into them by the courts, employers and other.

    http://www.morerevealed.com/books/resist/r_chap_1.htm

    Now there may be an unknown % of the "patients" in these facilitues who are strong willed enough to resist this mind control, but there must also be an unknown % who would be too vulnerable at this shaky point in their lives to fight it. I believe this is what the 12-steppers rely on.

    Without this huge money machine churning out new zealots, AA would wither and die in short order, leaving just the old timers to tell their stories to each other. I am going to do whatever I can to stop it.

  • #2
    AA is not allied with any sect

    AA is not allied with any sect, denomonation, politics, institution or organization and we are self supporting through our own contributions....if someone has a problem with drugs or alcohol they are not going to do anything about it until they are convinced they have a problem...I didnt.. if there is something else that works out there please let me know what that is because i thought i tried everything...

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    • #3
      Exactly. What does "are st

      Exactly. What does "are strong willed enough to resist this mind control" mean? They denied they had a problem and left acting the same as when they went in? That's not getting help, that's denying you have a problem and staying the same.
      I think the description of what she went through was a bit exagerated; one of the key characteristics of an alcoholic is the tendency to have a distorted sense of truth and to lie to all those around them.
      In your opinion, what WOULD work? Having a group of alcoholics come in and not drink for 30 days with no structured meetings? No counselors? So they could leave with the same faulty mindsets that had them drinking in the first place?
      I guess I don't see where your anger is coming from.

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      • #4
        I have heard all kinds wild st

        I have heard all kinds wild stories about rehabs, which by the way have nothing to do with AA. People come out of them with with all kinds of emotions flowing that they dont know how to deal with because they havnt felt them for so long if at all...its would be like being blind or deaf since you were a baby then all the sudden being able to see or hear...SENSORY OVERLOAD...I will tell you my first 30 days was very tough.. I Hope i never have to do that again...A newly recovering addict may say all kinds of things looking for someone to say they should try an easier way out...which will give them the OK to use or drink again.....Been there done that...

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        • #5
          I read those stats on the link

          I read those stats on the link above ......How come it doesnt show what the recovery rate is among those who are throughly and HONESTLY working the 12 step program as laid out in the "BIG BOOK" of alcholics anonymous?...I have NEVER seen a person fail who is working the steps to the best of their ability...I tried every thing i could to get sober. I drank Very heavy for 25 yrs and tried to quit for the last 10 or 12.nothing worked Jails , cops, family, doctors. Once I picked up that first drink I could not stop until I was to sick to get out of bed. nothing worked until I admitted I had a problem and started saying a 3rd step prayer in the morning..MY obsession of over 25 yrs was removed within 30 days...I never had 30 days sober in my life.(unless i was in jail).and that was because of what I learned in AA...Explain that one. But I keep working the rest of the steps 4-12 because it keeps me from doing or thinking the things that made me want to drink in the first place...I am Not cured Im recovered. Ps the recovery rate among those who are honestly working the program is over 75%......you dont get cured by showing up or attending a couple AA meetings ..There is some work involved.

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          • #6
            And also...after reading the i

            And also...after reading the info on that LINK. I can see why you feel the way you do..I guess I would feel the same....please understand though that the info is one sided and That AAWS guy that wrote it Was not an alcholic but an paid employee of aa world service (contractor) God+AA has saved my life so far...and probably the lives of a few pedestrians...http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

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            • #7
              And Also to be fair...I would

              And Also to be fair...I would suggest you go right to the source and read a copy of the "BIG BOOK" of aa.... just the first 164 pages should give you a pretty good perspective of the other side of the coin....get back to me on that... I will certainly try to answer any questions you might have also...thanks

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              • #8
                Oh, and AA was thriving for 30

                Oh, and AA was thriving for 30 yrs before they opened "treatment" centers....they just threw them in loony bins or jail.

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                • #9
                  Geokstr, I'm sorry your fr

                  Geokstr, I'm sorry your friend got abused. But I'm glad to be able to report to you that what you describe is not AA, nor is it how the vast majority of rehabs work. So-called "Step Houses" do frequantly commit the kind of abuses you describe. When someone is considering a rehab, making sure that the therapists/counselors actually have proffesional training is a damn good idea.

                  In AA, the idea of reading your 4th Step to a roomful of people would be according to what the Fellowship advocates would be immediately corrected if there were any people in the room who knew the program at all. Hell, in the Big Book, when it talks about that Step it specifically states that you don't even have to do it with someone who is helping you with the Steps (what we now call sponsors). It mentions that there are priests and ministers whom you can go to who by law and by common practice will be required to keep your business confidential!

                  As to your stats about the programs "death rate". Somebody lied to you. No-one keeps track of members, there are no Membership lists, nothing that would let someone come up with a stat like that with any hope of accuracy. The closest we come is a survey of the Membership done every few years. And meetings that register with our General Service office, which is estimated to be between 75% to maybe 85% of the meetings that exist, sometimes tell us their estimate of how many people regularly attend their meetings.

                  From data sources like that we come up with an estimate of perhaps 2 million plus worldwide, with over 1 million in the US & Canada. We can guess, probably pretty closely, that about 1/3, slightly over that, of the Membership is now comprised of women. But survival/catastrophic failure rates? Impossable.

                  The rehab I went thru 13 years ago was almost entirely cons beginning probation or parole, so they were able to track their people, their alumni, much better than most such places. They estimated that about 75% of the ones who didn't "graduate" still managed to stay clean & sober 5 years or more, and that over 90 % of the ones who graduated made it. (I use 5 years because 5 years of recovery in most life threatening diseases, like Cancer, is when you start being called, for example, a Cancer Survivor.) And it is a good thing so many of the ones who get kicked out make it, as less than 5% of the people who go there graduate!

                  Does what my rehab does say that AA/NA/CA, etc, have miraculous survival rates? No; my rehab is regarded as 1 of the very best in the country. But it does indicate that your stats are way off.

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                  • #10
                    the only thing missing from th

                    the only thing missing from the big book is jesus christ

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                    • #11
                      I see no one really read "

                      I see no one really read "my stats", because they are not mine. They are ALL from objective studies with control groups or at least compared to other methods, not self-selected "surveys" done by AA themselves and compared to NOTHING. Let me repeat - THERE ARE NO OBJECTIVE STUDIES (NONE)(ZERO)(NADA)(ZIP )(ZILCH) THAT SHOW AA OR 12-STEPPING IS ANY MORE EFFECTIVE THAN NO TREATMENT AT ALL. Some actually show a NEGATIVE effect, meaning those people might have been better off TO KEEP DRINKING than going to you for help.

                      These were all done by objective researchers, without particular axes to grind.

                      Most people, I believe 80%, who quit alcohol AND drugs DO IT ON THEIR OWN, without any help. Of course, you would say they are "dry drunks" and not really alcoholics, wouldn't you? More slogans which mean nothing. And they didn't have to devote their entire lives to a "group", constantly debasing themselves in public either.

                      It was ONE OF YOUR OWN TRUSTEES, GEORGE VAILLANT, not me, who found that AA was no more effective than no treatment at all. It was HIS calculation of the death rate that "apalled" him, not mine. If you actually read it this time, you'll see that he followed a specific group of individuals FOR 8 YEARS, not an anonymous group that you can't keep track of.

                      Are you going to call Mr. Vaillant a LIAR? He is STILL A TRUSTEE with your precious AAWS.

                      ADV925, what are you talking about "...those who are throughly and HONESTLY working the 12 step program...I have NEVER seen a person fail who is working the steps to the best of their ability." Geez, this is a quote right out of the AA literature. I can show it to you on the anti-AA sites. Are you all trained to memorize and say these things? And how exactly do you know which ones are working the program right? It's the one out of a hundred who are "succeeding" at it, isn't it? EVERYONE else is an abject failure, aren't they, "constitutionally incapable of being honest with themselves". (See, I know something about the loaded language AA uses too.)

                      That is NOT how objective studies are done, this is called a "self-selected" sample, a notorious method of skewing results to be anything you want them to be. It's also nothing but anecdotal, which in scientific terminology is called WORTHLESS information.

                      Tell me, do any of you actually have lives anymore that don't revolve around some 12-step group or another? Do your spouses go to AA, or AlAnon, or CODA? Kids go to AlaTeen perhaps? All your friends are in recovery? ANYBODY got a big group of "normies" as close friends in your life?
                      I doubt it. I suppose that's a good thing to you, because we aren't God's special people like those "in recovery", are we?

                      Have any of you read the history of AA? About the sick cult, the Oxford Group, of whom the sainted Bill W. and Dr. Bob were card carrying members, whose "6 principles", with a little added verbiage, became your famous 12-steps? How about the fact that the one who invented and perfected the infamous "13-stepping" was none other than Bill. W himself, who hopped on every weak and vulnerable new woman member, or at least the attractive ones? Were you aware that when Bill W. had his "conversion", he heard "God" after taking belladonna, a powerful hallucinagenic drug? Some message from God; that drug was later a favorite of hippies too. He also tried to recreate that experience in the 1950's by dropping acid - there's your hero who was "in recovery". He and Dr. Bob used Ouija boards for crying out loud. And Mr. Bill spent at least the last 10 years of his life being heavily treated for massive DEPRESSION. Must not have been "working his own program" right or "constitutionally too dishonest" to get serenity, huh?

                      And "rehabs" have nothing to do with AA? Excuse me? ANYTHING THAT USES 12-STEPPING SHOULD BE CONSIDERED AS A WHOLE; that includes AA, NA, EA, OA, CODA, AlAnon, and the "treatment" centers (rehabs) too. And 95% of the so-called "treatment" centers in this country use NOTHING but 12-step methods. More than half of the patients are coerced in by courts, employers and others. And when they get out, they are all told to do the 90/90. Over one MILLION of your new members get to you through this method EVERY YEAR. And the rehabs gross 15 BILLION dollars every year too. So much for attraction instead of promotion and the self-financing BS too. A lot of people are getting filthy RICH off the 12-steps.

                      If you think this was some kind of non-AA facility my friend went in, it is run by one G. Douglas Talbott. Anybody ever heard of him? A founder and past president of ASAM (American Society for Addictive Medicine) a die-hard supporter and member of AA.

                      It seems the last program he ran for medical professionals with addictions, 12-steps of course, which he was asked to leave, had 24 SUICIDES of patients and graduates, and he recently lost a 7-figure civil suit by a former patient for "medical malpractice, fraud and false imprisonment". One of your big gurus.

                      Did you know there have been four major court decisions declaring that AA is a religion, and that it is unconstitutional to coerce ANYBODY to go there, without giving them non-religious alternatives besides prison? Like Rational Recovery or SMART Recovery for instance. Your buds in the courthouses and parole offices are disobeying the law.

                      I'll bet you didn't know that most people in Europe consider AA a bunch of religious whackos. They are using completely different methods than we do here, and research shows them to be VERY effective.

                      And everything I said above is documented quite thoroughly all over the internet. Any of you know how to use a computer? Find stuff with a search engine? (You found my post easily enough) You know, the opposition to your 12-step theology is growing exponentially, now that people who have been deprogramming themselves from your mind control have a way to organize and communicate. Ah, the worldwide web, such a gift.

                      You want to gain some respect? Come right out and say you are a religion, offering a religious, not medical, way to gain sobriety. Prove your effectiveness scientifically, if you dare. (You won't.) And declare that you will accept no more new members who were coerced into any 12-step facility. Tell all your members to stop proselitizing to judges and parole officers. Tell your own members about other methods they could try if they felt uncomfortable with AA, instead of breaking their spirit and forcing them do it your way. (Some of them actually do that for YOU.)

                      You see, I know quite a bit about your religion, possibly more than some of you. I don't like what you did to my friend, and I am discovering that there are lots of people out here in the real world again who have had exactly the same experience too.

                      And we intend to do something about it.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Well It definetly is a Spiritu

                        Well It definetly is a Spiritual program....I guess if you really get technical about it it might be considered a religion..Why do you keep thinking AA did this to your friend??? A rehab has nothing to do with AA And I agree that there are rehabs out there that are in it for the $$$ theres one in california thats 30k a week for gods sake...If you dont think this is a disease try a little expirement of your own...ask you friend to see if she can have 3 drinks and stop for the day....if she can do this consistantly then she is probably not an alcoholic.....If she cant stop...tell her to try to stay sober your way or see a medical doctor.. I guarntee The doctor will say go to AA (if he knows about addiction which is not taught in med school).Or let her try it your way....If it works your way let me know so I can try it....SERIOUSLY.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          ADV925:

                          Unfortunately, I am

                          ADV925:

                          Unfortunately, I am no longer in contact with my ex-friend. She moved and didn't tell any of us "normies" where.

                          Have you read my rather lengthy posts? I already told you that the guy who runs this "program" was a member of AA, and a die hard 12-stepper. So were ALL the so-called "counselors" and meeting "facilitators". I am sorry but you can't say a "treatment" industry, which is populated almost exclusively by AA/NA counselors, teaches only the 12-steps, and tells everyone to do 90/90, is NOT AA too.

                          People out here refer to this as the 12-step movement, NOT AA and the "treatment" people and NA and CODA and AlAnon, etc. I am not going to allow you to separate yourself from those others so easily.

                          As for the disease concept, no one said it would necessarily be EASY to quit. But people do it ALL THE TIME, as is noted in all those studies I gave you the sites for. I will bet my farm (if I had one) that you have NOT so much as even read any of that. And the samples they used fit all the DSM criteria for serious alcohol abusers, including those who quit on their own.

                          READ some of this for God's sake. Open your eyes.

                          There is a really interesting experiment discussed there too. They separated a number of people diagnosed as alcohol abusers into two groups at random, then gave the people in both groups fruit drinks, half of which had alcohol in them and half didn't. They told one group that all the drinks they had contained alcohol and the other it didn't have any alcohol at all. (They lied to half of them.)

                          The result was that the people who drank what they thought was alcohol but wasn't, GOT JUST AS MUCH OF A BUZZ as the ones who really drank alcohol. In the other group, the ones whose drinks had alcohol (but were told they didn't)didn't get a buzz at all, and didn't abuse how much they drank.

                          In other words, the effect of the alcohol wasn't even real, but depended on the expectations of the consumer, not the alcohol content AT ALL.

                          Please direct me to the study that proves "alcoholism" is a disease. I would really like to read it. Seriously.

                          The doctor will say "go to AA" because they don't even know there are alternatives and AA has put up so much good (and phony) PR about their cure rate. My own shrink is the same one that recommended this "treatment center" for my friend. Now, based on my research, he is telling his patients about RR and SMART and the others INSTEAD. The education of America will continue until the 12-step movement has the reputation it deserves.

                          I am truly sorry if I am sounding very harsh, but based on my own research of everything on the internet (there are no AA studies at all except George Vaillant's, which you don't even believe), the 12-step movement is an obscenity.

                          You know, ADV, it is truly sad. Any sober time you have is because of your own strength, courage and commitment, not some crackpot religion's. You should be able to have so much pride in your accomplishment, but instead 12-stepping has told you that pride is a dirty word, hasn't it?

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            To geokstr... I'm a late-c

                            To geokstr... I'm a late-comer to this site and I've been through two treatment centers. I've literally rejected almost all of the things they've told me, and I haven't had a drink for 8 years. You are right on the mark. I posted my rebuttal to the disease theory at the end of the previous thread if you want to read it. This bit of medical double-talk is extremely dangerous because it puts the medical imprimatur on the whole business of coercing people into treatment, as you probably know by now. Once someone is deemed to have a disease which makes them do something against their will ( and their denial is considered to be part of the disease ) it sounds reasonable to use the coersion of the state to commit them. I'm glad I got wind of alternative views. My sister was not so lucky. She had gone through at least 7 treatment centers befor drinking herself to death. I remember her saying: "If it weren't for my sponsor and my breathalizer tests I would relapse...I'm not responsible for my disease but I'm responsible for my recovery" I am convinced in my own mind that this cult of learned helplessness and dependency does more harm than good. I am so glad that I am such a staunch individualist by nature, and that I've been able to get past this indoctrination...with the help of the many internet sources out there and the encouragement I get from reading posts like your's.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Hi PR:

                              Read your posts and

                              Hi PR:

                              Read your posts and we are on the same wavelength on just about everything.

                              I am sorry to hear about your sister but her story and fate are not uncommon in the 12-step movement. And again you are correct; tell someone over and over and over again that they are weak and helpless and powerless and you set up a self-fulfilling prophesy. This is at a time when they need all the inner strength they can muster. You might as well tell them to jump off the nearet cliff; it's the same damn thing.

                              There is an old saying that I believe is 100% true - "If you believe you can't; you're right. If you believe you can, then anything is possible.

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