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  • #31
    "One would have to set aside religious belief in order to engage in academic scientific research and publication in peer reviewed journals, because methodological naturalism is the required assumption when working with the scientific method. Supernaturalism has no place in science."
    Sounds like a Cult to me. And in fact the so called scientific community has been blasted good in the media for it's studies that somehow turn into "facts" when it comes to a lot of issues including Global Warming (remember Climategate?), Evolution, taking assumptive quantum leaps with their "facts" in a rush to "prove" what they haven't: that humans and simians had a common ancestor, now this... All with a predetermined prejudice before the "scientific study" begins. As the saying goes:

    "Garbage in, Garbage out."

    One does not have to set aside scripture to be a scientist despite the cultic behavior in applying tremendous dictatorial oppression at many scientific campus communities trying to censor free speech, free thought.

    You see when all truths are corrupted, twisted into lies, cultic behavior is behind it all. That is a constant in life. Truth does not need suppression of free thinking, free speech to survive. Only lies do.

    Your "scientific study" you are presenting here is just pretend science, science corrupted. Just more atheist propaganda which is derived from the same old method all lies are conceived.

    "Garbage in, Garbage out."


    • #32
      Hi Franklin. Your uninformed opinions concerning science are typical of right-wing Christians in general. This is why I think immersion in scripture compromises one’s intellectual capacity, and is the reason why such a large percentage of the world’s really great scientists reject religious mythology. Christian fundamentalists would rather believe in angels, demons, and talking snakes and a universe that is less than ten thousand years old than accept the science behind cosmology, biological evolution, and climate change.

      An example of this is your mention of “climategate,” suggesting that the science behind climate change (“global warming”) is somehow weakened by information contained in more than a thousand emails stolen from the Climate Research Unit of the University of Anglia spanning thirteen years.

      This happened when a hacker broke into their files and made these emails public. What these private correspondences between some scientists show is them talking frankly amongst themselves. Some of them were rude, dismissive, and behaving like jerks. What does that prove, that some scientists are not very nice people? What you would have to do, Franklin, is read these emails yourself and show me where there is any evidence of some sort of conspiracy within the scientific community…in context of course.

      Besides, this incident only represents a few scientists from one institution. You would have to include data presented by NASA and NOAA, whose results are synthesized from a huge number of sources when they submit reports that indicate that the Earth is warming, that sea levels are rising, and that human activity “very likely” has been responsible for the observed increase in global average temperatures since the mid-20th century; as you can see in the following paper submitted in 2007 by the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change. The organizations represented are the World Meteorological Organization, the United Nations Environment Programme, and endorsed by the United Nations General Assembly.

      It is the current scientific consensus that most of the observed warming over the last fifty years is likely to have been due to the human-caused increase in greenhouse gas concentrations. This is acknowledged by the Royal Society, the American Geophysical Union, the Joint Science Academies, the American Association for the Advancement of Science, as well as the IPCC mentioned above.

      “Careful and comprehensive scientific assessments have clearly demonstrated that the Earth’s climate system is changing in response to growing atmospheric burdens of greenhouse gases and absorbing aerosol particles.” (IPCC, 2007)

      “Climate change is occurring, and is caused largely by human activities, and poses significant risks for a broad range of human and natural systems. The potential threats are serious and actions are required to mitigate climate change risks and to adapt the deleterious climate change impacts that probably cannot be avoided.” (NRC 2010)

      “Comprehensive scientific assessments of our current and potential future climates clearly indicate that climate change is real, largely attributable to emissions from human activities.” (American Chemical Society 2010)

      “More than a century’s worth of detailed climate observations shows a sharp increase in both carbon dioxide and temperature. These observations, together with computer model simulations and historical climate reconstructions from ice cores, ocean sediments and tree rings all provide strong evidence that the majority of the warming over the past century is a result of human activities. This is also the conclusion drawn, nearly unanimously, by climate scientists.” (The Weather Channel)

      Every major scientific organization have published similar position statements concerning climate change.

      Before expressing uninformed opinions based on material that you haven’t even read, you should educate yourself about such things so that it will at least appear that you know what your talking about. The same can be said about your opinions concerning biological evolution and the scientific method itself, which are nothing but right-wing Christian propaganda with no substance.


      • #33
        Why is it that everyone who disagrees with you is always uninformed?

        Yet no one here is agreeing with you.

        So are you the sole keeper of the truth and everyone who disagrees with you is ignorant?

        I think anyone who totally immerses themselves in faith in science alone compromises one's intellectual capacity.

        Where is your proof that:

        "such a large percentage of the world’s really great scientists reject religious mythology".

        Is that something you just made up or do you have a credible source for that bold claim?

        The labels "Christian" and "fundamentalists" are synonymous because the fundamentals of Christianity are the words of Christ.

        When all is said and done, discovered and proved, the history of creation found in all three texts of the Abrahamic faiths and told similarly in all other Theist type religions will fit hand in glove with true science.

        I am not here to debate Global Warming with you but just used that as an example of fuzzy wuzzy science that the premise of is still being debated by the global scientific community. Also pointing out that disallowing any debate on it's (or Creationism's) validity is cultic mind control.

        I really don't mind you calling me "right wing" because what is "left wing"?

        Answer: Communism, Socialism, Fascism: totalitarianism.

        I've read all of those links you provided and many others that counter their claims. Problems arise when political agendas override and drown out free thinking in the science community.

        As well as when militant, intolerant Atheist agendas override a search for truth and tolerance of others' beliefs as revealed by the bogus studies that you started this topic about.

        I know what I am talking about. I've done my homework and endeavor to think out of the box like a free thinker should.

        I strongly detect Orwellian Newspeak in your posts convoluted to squash all opposing thought and consideration.

        I believe my Christian perspective with a open minded, discerning respect for legitimate, uncorrupted, non agenda scientific research is vastly superior to your cherry picking dubious studies that culminate in calling anyone stupid!

        Sincere truth seeking with factual evidence has flown the coop when Atheists abuse the term "scientific studies" to concoct that people who believe in God are stupid! Just shows how desperate, intolerant and disrespectful militant Atheism has become! No surprise here.

        You may pat yourself on your own back with your self adorned intellectual pseudo superiority but you are only fooling yourself.


        • #34
          Happy Easter to EVERYONE!


          • #35
            Hi Franklin. In response to your request for a “credible source” for my assertion that “a large percentage of the world’s really great scientists reject religious mythology,” I’ll point to Elaine Howard Ecklund’s Science vs. Religion: What Scientists Really Think (Oxford University Press, copyright 2010) in order to get her perspective concerning the percentages of scientists who believe, not believe, or are agnostic about God.


            First, who is Elaine Howard Ecklund? She is a professor of sociology at Rice University, current director of Religion & Public Life for the Institute for Urban Research, and a Rice Scholar at the James A. Baker III Institute for Public Policy. She earned a Ph.D. in sociology from Cornell University.


            The results of her research indicated that only twenty-seven percent of scientists had “some belief in God.” Of them, nine percent had doubts but affirmed their belief, five percent had occasional belief, eight percent believed in a higher power that isn’t a personal God, and nine percent said they have “no doubt of God’s existence.” This is in contrast to the rest of the U.S. population with a 90% belief in God.

            You’re doing the same thing here that you always do, Franklin. I present some conclusions about religious belief from scientists based on their research; and instead of commenting on it and explaining why you disagree, you attack me personally (“intolerant militant atheist with a self-adorned intellectual pseudo-superiority”).

            I never used the word “stupid,” I mentioned that there is evidence that those who embrace a fundamentalist/literalist interpretation of scripture are “less intelligent” than those who don’t. That does not equate to “stupid.” It has been shown that scientists who have earned Ph.Ds and are involved in current academic research in evolutionary biology, cosmology, and physics are predominantly non-theists as opposed to the general population who have less education. You can argue with the statistics, the research, and the results; but calling what I write “Orwellian Newspeak” is only an ad hominem rhetoric, the logical fallacy of attacking me rather than what I say.


            • #36

              "Ecklund surveyed nearly 1,700 scientists and interviewed 275 of them. She finds that most of what we believe about the faith lives of elite scientists is wrong. Nearly 50 percent of them are religious. Many others are what she calls "spiritual entrepreneurs," seeking creative ways to work with the tensions between science and faith outside the constraints of traditional religion."

              "Only a small minority are actively hostile to religion. Ecklund reveals how scientists-believers and skeptics alike-are struggling to engage the increasing number of religious students in their classrooms and argues that many scientists are searching for "boundary pioneers" to cross the picket lines separating science and religion."


              "In the new study, Rice University sociologist Elaine Howard Ecklund surveyed 1,646 faculty members at elite research universities, asking 36 questions about belief and spiritual practices.

              "Based on previous research, we thought that social scientists would be less likely to practice religion than natural scientists are, but our data showed just the opposite," Ecklund said.

              Some stand-out stats: 41 percent of the biologists don't believe, while that figure is just 27 percent among political scientists.

              In separate work at the University of Chicago, released in June, 76 percent of doctors said they believed in God and 59 percent believe in some sort of afterlife."

              Dodge, where do you get the figure you quote? This survey is actually saying that 59% of biologists practice religion, 73% political scientists practice religion, and 76% of Doctors BELIEVE IN GOD!!!

              I don't know, do you even read the sources you point to?? Maybe, math is not your specialty? Maybe, you are the small minority that the article you gave us is talking about! You have only disproven what you state as fact to me!

              I don't care about intelligence. I care about wisdom. It seems that articles that you link contradict what you state as fact.

              Maybe Dodge is really TATM/COL/BO? All of them contradicting historical facts?
              Last edited by easeltine; 04-08-2012, 11:16 PM.


              • #37
                Scientists and Belief

                POLL November 5, 2009



                • #38



                  • #39
                    Easeltine -- My source is the book itself, which I have. Let me quote directly from it:

                    “About sixty-four percent of scientists at elite research universities either are certain that they do not believe in God (atheist) or do not know (agnostic).”

                    “Only nine percent of scientists say they have no doubt that God exists, compared to well over sixty percent of the general public.”

                    “Ninety-four percent of religious scientists think that evolution is the best explanation for the development of life on earth.”

                    I have the book in my Kindle reader, which is searchable. Let’s look at that quote in the article, that “nearly 50 percent of them are religious.” What she actually wrote is that “50 percent of scientists have a religious tradition,” not “believe in God.” They “identify with a religious tradition,” a “religious identity.” The author says that of the 50 percent of scientists who identified with a religious tradition, the higher proportion are Jewish (about 16 percent), but identify only as an ethnicity and not in terms of active religious faith.”

                    So, although 50 percent of the “elite scientists” that she surveyed identify with a “religious tradition,” only 9 percent say they have no doubt that God exists as opposed to sixty percent of the general population.

                    Other statistics that the author gives is that “8% of scientists believe in a higher power, but not God.” “5% sometimes believe in God.” “14% have doubts, but believe in God.” “None of the religious scientists I talked with supported the theory of intelligent design.”

                    In answer to your sarcastic question, “do you even read the sources you point to?,” I own the book. Your equally sarcastic question, “maybe math is not your specialty,” doesn’t deserve a response.


                    • #40


                      So it turns out that the claim that "such a large percentage of the world’s really great scientists reject religious mythology".

                      is false! Of course the part of "the world’s really great scientists" is strictly subjective. Of course Dodge thinks that the Pope of Atheism, Richard Dawkins, is the greatest scientist, man who ever lived. As if... lol!

                      But sorry, no sale, no cigar!

                      Percentages of scientists that who believe in a higher power, supreme being or God, gods range in the numbers from above charts....

                      51% with 7% who don't know or refused to answer

                      so where is your "large percentage"? Can't seem to find it.

                      The whole premise of this topic started by dodge is ad hominem rhetoric attacking over 85% of the world's population including the other poster's of this forum.


                      • #41
                        “elite scientists”

                        (rolls eyes!)

                        Hmmm! Where have I heard the term "elite" before?

                        Oh yeah! Cults! All Cults believe they are the 'ELITE'!

                        Here are the truly great, "elite" to use that term correctly, scientists of the world and what they believe:

                        ALBERT EINSTEIN

                        Nobel Laureate in Physics:

                        “I want to know how God created this world. I am not interested in this or that phenomenon, in the spectrum of this or that element. I want to know His thoughts, the rest are details.” (Einstein, as cited in Clark 1973, 33).

                        MAX PLANCK

                        Nobel Laureate in Physics

                        “Religion represents a bond of man to God. It consists in reverent awe before a supernatural Might to which human life is subordinated and which has in its power our welfare and misery.

                        WERNER HEISENBERG

                        Nobel Laureate in Physics:

                        Heisenberg wrote: “The first gulp from the glass of natural sciences will turn you into an atheist, but at the bottom of the glass God is waiting for you .

                        ROBERT MILLIKA

                        Nobel Laureate in Physics:

                        “It pains me as much as it did Kelvin ‘to hear crudely atheistic views expressed by men who have never known the deeper side of existence.’ Let me, then, henceforth use the word God to describe that which is behind the mystery of existence and that which gives meaning to it. I think you will not misunderstand me, then, when I say that I have never known a thinking man who did not believe in God.”

                        “To me it is unthinkable that a real atheist could be a scientist.”

                        CHARLES TOWNES,

                        Nobel Laureate in Physics.

                        “I strongly believe in the existence of God, based on intuition, observations, logic, and also scientific knowledge.” (Townes 2002a).

                        ARTHUR SCHAWLOW

                        Nobel Laureate in Physics:

                        “Religion is founded on faith. It seems to me that when confronted with the marvels of life and the universe, one must ask why and not just how. The only possible answers are religious."

                        WILLIAM PHILLIPS

                        Nobel Laureate in Physics.

                        “I believe in God. In fact, I believe in a personal God who acts in and interacts with the creation. I believe that the observations about the orderliness of the physical universe, and the apparently exceptional fine-tuning of the conditions of the universe for the development of life suggest that an intelligent Creator is responsible. …I believe in God because of a personal faith, a faith that is consistent with what I know about science.”

                        SIR WILLIAM H. BRAGG

                        Nobel Laureate in Physics:

                        “What should be the principles of a nation? …Christ stated them in the form of two Commandments: ‘Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart’, and ‘Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.’ ” (Bragg, as cited in Caroe 1979, 111).

                        GUGLIELMO MARCONI

                        Nobel Laureate in Physics:

                        "Guglielmo Marconi wrote: “The more I work with the powers of Nature, the more I feel God’s benevolence to man; the closer I am to the great truth that everything is dependent on the Eternal Creator and Sustainer"

                        ARTHUR COMPTON

                        Nobel Laureate in Physics:

                        “For myself, faith begins with the realization that a supreme intelligence brought the universe into being and created man. It is not difficult for me to have this faith, for it is incontrovertible that where there is a plan there is intelligence. An orderly, unfolding universe testifies to the truth of the most majestic statement ever uttered - ‘In the beginning God.’

                        ARNO PENZIAS,

                        Nobel Laureate in Physics.

                        “The best data we have are exactly what I would have predicted, had I had nothing to go on but the five books of Moses, the Psalms, the Bible as a whole.” (Penzias, as cited in Bergman 1994.)

                        "To me it is unthinkable that a real atheist could be a scientist.”


                        • #42
                          Hi Franklin. That statistical pie chart shows that fifty-two percent of scientists are atheists, agnostics, or “nothing in particular,” as opposed to seventeen percent of the general population. This verifies that scientists are much less religious than non-scientists. Given that scientists with advanced degrees are more intelligent than the general population, wouldn’t that confirm what I was saying?

                          That’s a Pew Forum survey, but the link you posted isn’t working so I don’t know when it was conducted or the details. In a 2009 Pew survey on the religious beliefs of scientists, it says that “33% of scientists say they believe in God, while 18% believe in a universal spirit or higher power. By contrast, 95% of Americans believe in some form of deity or higher power.” This was a survey conducted in July of 2006. The results were that more than 83% of the general population say they believe in God and 12% believe in a universal spirit or higher power. Again, this confirms that the more education that one gets the less they believe in God. Right?


                          It looks like that were you got your pie charts.


                          • #43

                            You're splitting hairs with your agenda.

                            51% believe in a higher power, supreme being, creator, unseen universal intelligence. No sense trying to divide that number up to your advantage. This discussion is about Atheist scientists versus Theist, Deist, Polythiest... scientists. Atheist scientists is very small... 17% versus 2% general population who would reject belief in a higher power.

                            Agnostics admit they don't know so they are in the middle and can't be can't be counted in the those who reject belief in a higher power. And your statement about Jewish scientists who claim to be Jewish in a cultural sense but not religious I think you just pulled out of thin air, wishful thinking on your part.

                            You've just given us an example of how an agenda driven "scientific survey" is conducted. Twisting of what facts we do have.

                            No that does not confirm that the more education that one gets the less they believe in God.

                            We have only discussed scientists. Scientists are not the only ones with college degrees. Only a fraction of the whole. So your premise there is misleading us again down a rose laden path to nowhere. Nice try though. Got to give you credit for trying to pull the wool over our eyes and your persistence. lol!

                            Fact is the most intelligent people in the world do not have an accredited higher education. That is why the "studies" you started this topic with have no validity in the real world. Just a bunch of "elite" snobs looking down their noses at the rest of the world. God help them!


                            • #44
                              I love this quote right here:

                              "In separate work at the University of Chicago, released in June, 76 percent of doctors said they believed in God and 59 percent believe in some sort of afterlife.""

                              I know that they do not believe in God the same way I do. That God is more a deist idea, and that God works through evolution.

                              Still, my dad and uncle reached the conclusion that God is real after their life work as Doctors.

                              76% of Doctors believe in God? That is a HUGE amount!!

                              What happened to only 27% of scientists believe in God, didn't present the FACTS CORRECTLY! 51% Believe in God, or a "Higher Power," 41% don't believe in either, and 7% don't know. That means there are 58% of all Scientists that state that there is, or could be a God!
                              Last edited by easeltine; 04-09-2012, 01:10 AM.


                              • #45
                                That gives me a lot more assurance when a family member or friend of mine is in the emergency room. Doctors who think that all humanity is no more than future worm food scares me. Life is sacred!