Here is Dan Paxton's last post on the other thread...very enlightening.
JOHN MOREY John Morey for several years was the primary speaker on Sunday morning at the meetings in Alhambra. This was after Berl Chisum was asked to step down as a full time minister in the Los Angeles area because of problems he had at home. John's messages seemed to be well prepared and he presented them well. I felt then that he was lead by the Holy Spirit in what he gave. Marlie and I did have confidence in John for a long time. We felt that he was a just and fair man but as the years went by many started complaining about John's demeanor on the basketball court and at his place of business. He didn't play basketball at the playnights for the fun of playing. He played to win. His mannerism on the court was upsetting to many. This was brought to his attention on several occasions. He told me shortly before I was marked that he had solved that problem by refraining from playing basketball at playnights. This didn't seem to me to be a victory over his flesh. Also at his music store he had for a while a TV hidden in the shop where he worked on musical instruments. He would watch TV while repairing musical instruments. He confessed that this was hipocritical when he knew that the teaching of the group at that time was that a Christian shouldn't watch TV.
When the situation arose with my son-in-law Fred, I still had confidence in John and viewed him as a just and fair man. I felt sure that he would study Fred's letter and write a reply giving his position on the points that Fred was concerned about. This was not what he did. I saw that the only reason he wanted the young fathers to put their concerns in writing was for him to have something that according to him showed they were trouble makers. So I quickly learned that the character of John Morey had come to the surface. Before I was marked I asked John to send a copy of his marking letter Fred and one to me. He never did.
When his son Benjamin's mother-in-law passed away I went to the funeral service which was held in a chapel at the Rose Hills Cemetary in Whittier, CA. It was conducted by a denominational minister from Long Beach. Benjamin did take a few minutes and give something from the scriptures. I don't know if John felt that this justified him disobeying doctrine that he supposedly endorsed. As far as I know the group taught then and still teaches that a Christian that calls himself/herself a separated Christian should not attend funerals and weddings conducted by ministers they consider sectarian. I wrote John a letter and asked him if he had changed his belief on this subject. In the same letter I asked hime again to send me a copy of his letter marking Fred. This was over two years ago and I have not heard from him yet.
My mother-in-law Eleanor Smith wrote to John hoping that he would write her. She was Marjorie's aunt. Marjorie is John's wife. Eleanor was in her eighties and was also marked so John didn't have the courtesy to reply to her letter.
On another note...today I was in a store and one of the ladies from the group who normally smiles and is very friendly when I run into her, looked away quickly when our eyes were about to meet. She then hurried down the aisle with a very grim look on her face. It might be nothing, but I got the feeling that this forum and my input here might have changed the way she views things. I think they are on the run and very tortured in their minds...
Just curious. Do you know of others who are accessing this site? No need for names, of course. Are there more people that feel the same as you? Do you and your spouse ever talk about a way to address some of your concerns, or do you feel trapped with no outlet?
I am in no way trying to get you in trouble. Just curious as to how many share your same sentiments. Is there no one you trust who has the power to stand up to the leadership?
Thank you for sharing your feelings. I have a feeling that many are reading, but no one has the courage to step forward, even anonymously. Thank you for taking that first step. I hope your post will encourage others to do the same.
Here's a list of people I used to think were level headed and not crowd followers. I remember them as being kind, positive, and generally enjoyable to be around. I wonder if they are reading, and if they are I wonder what they have to say about the chaos Robert and his cohorts have created.
Bruce Stevens-so much like Jane, common sense
Wayne Birkholz-quiet spirit and smile
Steve Sharpless-same as Wayne
Jim Stevens-all around nice guy
Tim Stevens-quiet, but seemed very nice
David Bowen, Jr.-friendly, had a clue
Stan Chisolm-strong and fair, like my dad
Timothy Wiley- well I guess he was kind of young
Don Howell, Jr.-knew him at a young age-kind
Just wondering if I really knew them and the character they portrayed.
Holly, I'll agree with you on David Bowin. Not sure about the others. I often wondered what is going through David's mind about all this, he is a pretty smart individual and he wasn't exactly "toeing the line" in the group when he was growing up. Seemed to have a lot of common sense...I attended Cal Poly SLO with him and worked on some projects together. One thing I really hold against him is that he introduced me to the game of golf and for that I'll NEVER forgive him.http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif
In regards to David Bowin, Jim & I thought that he was of the same mind that we were right before we got marked. Him & his wife Lauren came to stay the week-end with us. They initiated several conversations on different topics as to what was going on in meeting. Having the impression that they were of like mind, we felt comfortable in opening up to them as to where we stood. We found out that following week that they were sent to stay with us and used as spies by Ray Sharpless and David Sr. to see where we stood. We knew then that his convictions were not consistant.
Sounds like David Bowin and John Morey have something in common! I have often wondered about David Bowin as well and how his hypocrisy managed to go unnoticed. Pam's story confirms my suspicion of their approved methods -- just sell out someone else & we'll leave you alone! I have great pity for people who are living with that on their conscience and great sadness if their conscience is seared beyond the point of bothering them!
In order to access the ORIGINAL thread, you must wait after you have clicked onto The Church Which Is Christ's Body. Do not click on the subtitles. It takes a while to come up because the first thread is extremely long.
It has been a long time since I have heard from some of you and a Lot longer for others. Mickey Jean was my cousin. His dad did try to get him help but the law in California states that anyone over the age of 18 has to commit themselves for help. He was told by the leaders that counseled him that he was not worthy of a good christian girl. Now go figure, at 22 years old that had to be devestating. Also I don't know how many of you heard that Grampa Jean after he had his stroke, encouraged some of the grandchildren to 'get out of the church while you still can'. Of course this was interpreted to his coming out of the Catholic Church but I think it was a real insight. Well Nancy, I want you to know that your dad is One of the very Happy Memories of my childhood. All the way back to when he cooked with my grandma at Camp Selley(sp) Donna and Pam, I remember many time and visits we had when we came to visit. Some of the others of you are younger and I just don't remember well. You are the ages of my children and I missed so much of all the growing up. When we were marked my children were 3,4,7,8 and they grew up without grandparents, aunts and uncles so I know things hurt but sometimes its best for me just to let them go. I cannot change others but I can keep myself from being bitter. Well now that I have found this I will keep reading. Nice to hear you all. Oh and I found this because I have a passion of research and I was looking for Zelder's since my cousin is married to one.
PS I posted this again because I guess I posted it on the wrong thread.
"He was told by the leaders that counseled him that he was not worthy of a good christian girl"
For that comment to Mickey...his blood is on their hands!
Even if Mickey had problems, I blame the men in the SLO assembly for putting him over the edge. I remember a men's meeting that I went to with my dad at Gordy Grant's house. It was basically a "what to do with Mickey" meeting. I was a young teenager at the time and I remember sensing that Mickey was crying out for help. Many of the men were being very hard on Mickey but I specifically remember Roger Grant Sr. standing up, pointing his finger at Mickey, and saying in a loud voice words to the effect that he was having problems because of sin in his life and he was the problem.(I don't remember the exact words but that was the gist of it). I knew then and there that something was terribly wrong with how the men handled Mickey. I saw absolutely no love and compassion in the men but I did see pain and a begging for love in Mickey's eyes. I don't know if I can ever forgive the men for how they treated him. That is their M.O. however. They perceive someone to be a problem, and, instead of the love, understanding, and compassion that Jesus would have shown, they get on their power trips and kick people when they are down.
"Mommyii", e-mail me at firstname.lastname@example.org I want to relate a story to you regarding Mickey.
I just came into this site yesterday when my wife found it. Needless to say, I'm very disturbed. When I went through it yesterday I thought I would respond as normal and not want to be involved but I had very little sleep last night as these thing revovled through my head. My family and I were marked in early 1986. I went to Grandpa Jean with some concerns about the scriptures being used to mark my mother(Ruth) and my sister Louella. He encouraged me to put it into writing which I did, as a letter to the men in the group. He came back to me and said Weyman wanted to talk to me and I responded that I wanted him to help me. We had had a long and loving relationship together and he was the only one I trusted. When I told him this, he said he was sorry, but my concerns would have to be addressed by the whole group. I was devestated and knew the end for us in the group was finally upon us. ( We had not gone to meetings for over a year already).
When my Mom was under consideration for marking prior to this time, I had been brought into a high pressure mens meeting and told I should be the one to mark her, as proof I was still with them. I caved under the pressure and got up in the meeting that followed and did the deed. As I drove home I realized what I had done and how much control they had over my mind.
These were the things leading up to my talk with Grandpa Jean and my resulting letter. It was at this time that I wrote the second letter and in it unmarked my Mom and stated I was not interested in any further relationship with the group. My sister Helen has not allowed contact since that time and most of my wife's family have shunned us since then. This pain is so deep that our family still feels the emotional truama and the isolation resulting from this time period almost 20 years ago.
I realize I've rambled to a great extent but it is nice to have the forum for it. Most of you probly don't remember me but I have many memories of you.
What has happened for the last 20 years. Where are all the other hundreds of people who have suffered this truama.