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  • How many of you think that the battle over health care reform is fought using facts, logic, reason and concern for the forty-six million uninsured? Politicians learned long ago that appeals to emotion, especially fear, are much more powerful than logic and the use of facts. Lies are being perpetuated by Sarah Palin and leading Republican representatives, and mouthpieces for the lunatic right such as Rush Limbaugh, Ann Coulter and Michelle Malkin in order to frighten and anger people into rejecting the President‘s health care reform bill. Just take a look at Palin’s facebook post, where she wrote that people will have “to stand in front of Obama’s Death Panel so as his bureaucrats can decide, based on a subjective judgment of their level of productivity in society whether they are worthy of health care.”

    PolitiFact.com wrote that “Palin ‘death panel’ claim sets Truth-O-Meter ablaze.” They read and studied the health care reform bill, examined versions in various committees, and say that “there is no panel in any version of the health care bills in Congress that judges a person’s ‘level of productivity in society’ to determine whether he or she is ‘worthy’ of health care.” PolitFact went on to say that this claim is similar to another lie, which says that health care reform would mandate counseling for seniors on how to end their lives sooner. Both of these claims are judged “pants on fire” lies.

    http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-me...-o-meter-fire/

    http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-me...-o-meter-fire/

    People believe the most outrageous lies, and those that perpetuate them all seem to have a web page, a blog or Facebook entry, that allows them to Google their way to so-called “evidence” that backs up their conspiracy theory or their belief, in this case the non-existant “evils of Obamacare.” Because of this, there are people out there who believe that the President’s health care refrom bill will pay for illegal aliens’ health care, sex change operations, and abortions on demand. Leading Republicans, such as House Minority Leader John Boehner, are part of this politcally-motivated web of disinformation and lies. Boehner said in an op-ed piece that the health care reform bill “will require Americans to subsidize abortion with their hard-earned tax dollars.”

    PolitiFact found this to be a false claim, because of an amendment in a key version of the House plan “that specificially seeks to ensure that federal funds are not used to subsidize abortion coverage.” It also debunked another piece of politically/religiously-motivated disinformation that Liberty Counsel, affiliated with Liberty University School of Law (an evangelical Christian school founded by Jerry Falwell), being circulated about a provision in the health care reform bill that would “establish school-based health clinics.” “Your children will be indoctrinated and your grandchildren may be aborted!” This was proved to be another “pants on fire” lie, designed to frighten and anger people into taking action against the President’s health plan legislation.

    http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-me...e-reform-bill/

    Sharon Begley has an excellent article called “Attack! The Truth About Obamacare” in Newsweek, that probes these issues of politically-motivated disinformation campaigns and the psychological tactic of creating fear and anger that leave logic and fact in the dust.

    http://www.newsweek.com/id/212131

    http://c2.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/i...df8aa3a88d.jpg

    Comment


    • GOODBYE LOSERS:

      http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/52602

      "Sharon Begley has an excellent article called “Attack! The Truth About Obamacare” in Newsweek, that probes these issues of politically-motivated disinformation campaigns and the psychological tactic of creating fear and anger that leave logic and fact in the dust."

      No one has used that tactic more effectively than the Obama administration. Thir record of using it not only speaks for itself, but their open use of Alinsky's Rule For radicals, which you, Diodge admitted you have no clue about, affirms it.

      "How many of you think that the battle over health care reform is fought using facts, logic, reason and concern for the forty-six million uninsured?"

      That's one example. How does the administration come about that figure?

      Comment


      • Well, Smyrna, that Conservative News article that you linked to doesn’t give the full picture. The “conservative” label crosses over party lines. For example, Gallup shows that twenty-two percernt of Democrats consider themselves conservative, while only three percent of Republicans identify themselves as liberal. Among Independents, forty-five percent describe their political views as moderate, thirty-four percent conservative, and twenty-percent liberal. To say that someone is “conservative” doesn’t mean that he or she will vote Republican. In fact, Gallup also says that “thus far in 2009, Gallup has found an average of thirty-six percent of Americans considering themselves Democrats, twenty-eight percent Republican, and thirty-seven percent Independent. When Independents are pressed to say which party they lean toward, fifty-one percent of Americans identify as Democrats, thirty-nine percent Republicans, and only nine percent Independents.

        http://www.gallup.com/poll/120857/Co...cal-Group.aspx

        Yes, Gallup says that there are more conservatives than liberals; but it also says that there are more Democrats than Republicans. The question asked by Gallup was “what is your political view: very conservative, conservative, moderate, liberal, or very liberal.” Nine percent identified themselves as “very conservative,” thirty-one percent as “conservative,” thirty-five percent as “moderate,” sixteen percent as “liberal,” five percent as “very liberal,” and four percent as having no opinion.

        Of the twenty-two percent of Democrats who consider themselves conservative, which political party do you think they’ll vote for? Of the three percent of Republicans who consider themselves liberal, which political party do you think they’ll vote for? Since there are more Democrats than Republicans, you figure it out.

        http://c2.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/i...df8aa3a88d.jpg

        Comment


        • The “forty-seven million uninsured” figure is from the 2006 U.S. Census Bureau report. In 2007, the Census Bureau reported that the number actually declined somewhat, to forty-five and a half million people under sixty-five. FactCheck has an article about this here:

          http://www.factcheck.org/2009/03/uninsured-us-citizens/

          In October of last year, the Kaiser Foundation, which focuses on major health care issues facing the nation, published a pamphlet called “Key Facts About Americans Without Health Insurance.” In it, it says that “45 million people under the age of 65 had no health insurance coverage in 2007.” They go on to say that “most of the uninsured come from working families and have low incomes.” You can find a PDF copy of this report here:

          http://kff.org/uninsured/upload/7451-04.pdf

          http://c2.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/i...df8aa3a88d.jpg

          Comment


          • Since you like Gallup, Smyrna, I’ll point you to a July 22, 2009 article on their site that says “About One in Six U.S. Adults are Without Health Insurance.” Their “Gallup-Healthways Well-Being Index” data for June revealed that 16.0%of American adults are currently without health insurance. This is actually higher than the U.S. Census Bureau report that revealed 15.3% of all Americans (including children) are without health insurance. Gallup goes on to say that “extrapolations of the Census data suggest that the percentage of adults aged 18 and older without insurance in 2007 would be close to 17%.” Gallup also states that “it would not be surprising if the Census figures for 2009, when available, show an increase in the percentage who are uninsured compared to earlier years.”

            http://www.gallup.com/poll/121820/on...insurance.aspx

            The June 2009 data encompassed more than 29,000 daily tracking interviews of Americans aged 18 and older. It showed an uptick in the percentage of uninsured adults over the last year and a half. Their studies indicate that 41.5% of all Hispanic Americans are without insurance. Non-Hispanic black Americans are also significantly more likely than non-Hispanic white Americans to be uninsured. “There is a strong relationship between age and income and health insurance coverage, with younger and low-income Americans significantly more likely to be uninsured than others. In fact, the two groups with the highest uninsured rates, other than Hispanics, are Americans who make less than $36,000 per year and those aged 18-29. Americans with high rates of health insurance coverage are those making $90,000 or more annually.

            Gallup’s Healthways Well-Being Index is the first and largest survey of its kind, with 1,000 calls a day, seven days a week. It is the official statistic for Well-Being in America, giving a daily measure of people’s well-being at the close of every day.

            Comment


            • Any Democrat today who think's he's a conservative is not only wasting his time being a member of that party, but he's also in such a minority that he'd have a hard time finding anyone to agree with him that is also a Democrat.

              In 2004, Zell Miller felt he had no other choice than to bolt his own party's convention and went to the Republican convention, and here's why:

              "Now, while young Americans are dying in the sands of Iraq and the mountains of Afghanistan, our nation is being torn apart and made weaker because of the Democrat's manic obsession to bring down our Commander in Chief.

              What has happened to the party I've spent my life working in?

              I can remember when Democrats believed that it was the duty of America to fight for freedom over tyranny.

              It was Democratic President Harry Truman who pushed the Red Army out of Iran, who came to the aid of Greece when Communists threatened to overthrow it, who stared down the Soviet blockade of West Berlin by flying in supplies and saving the city."

              And nothing makes this Marine madder than someone calling American troops occupiers rather than liberators.
              Tell that to the one-half of Europe that was freed because Franklin Roosevelt led an army of liberators, not occupiers.

              Tell that to the lower half of the Korean Peninsula that is free because Dwight Eisenhower commanded an army of liberators, not occupiers.

              Tell that to the half a billion men, women and children who are free today from the Baltics to the Crimea, from Poland to Siberia, because Ronald Reagan rebuilt a military of liberators, not occupiers."

              Sounds like the man knows what he's talking about, of course, I fully expect you to try and dig up some dirt on him, good luck.

              Mark Levin just wrote an entire book about the Democrats embracing tyrranny rather than liberty.

              So while you engage in counting the hanging chads to support your silly views, Amricans are recognizing their freedoms are being eroded by a bunch of left wing lunatics that are both power hungry and narcissistic, arrogant snobs who are far from serving the people.

              The AARP has provided their own spin to the fact they are losing memebrs over this debacle:

              WASHINGTON (AP) — About 60,000 senior citizens have quit AARP since July 1 due to the group's support for a health care overhaul, a spokesman for the organization said Monday.
              The membership loss suggests dissatisfaction on the part of AARP members at a time when many senior citizens are concerned about proposed cuts to Medicare providers to help pay for making health care available for all. But spokesman Drew Nannis said it wasn't unusual for the powerful, 40 million-strong senior citizens' lobby to shed members in droves when it's advocating on a controversial issue.

              AARP is strongly backing a health care overhaul, running ads to support it and hosting President Obama at an online forum recently to promote his agenda to AARP members. However, the group has not endorsed a specific bill and says it won't support a plan that reduces Medicare benefits.

              http://www.usatoday.com/news/washing...overhaul_N.htm

              Comment


              • Hi Smyrna. The 60,000 number that’s being discussed, people who have quit AARP because of its stance on health care reform, really is an insignificant number, tough AARP takes it seriously; and it doesn’t represent any massive movement away from AARP. You call it “spin,” but the fact is that over the same time period, since July 1st, 400,000 people have joined AARP and 1.5 million have renewed their membership. AARP typically loses 300,000 members a month because of their failure to renew their memberships or because of death.

                http://www.aarp.org/community/groups...opicId=3532742

                These are facts, not “spin.” Jim Dau, a spokesman for AARP, said that it had lost members before due to contentious issues. In 2003 AARP lost 70,000 to 80,000 members over its support for a Medicare prescription drug program. In 2005, it lost 8,000 to 10,000 members for opposing efforts to privatize Social Security.

                “With a membership this big, there will be differences of opinion with our advocacy positions,” Mr. Dau said. “But history has born out that many of our members come back. We want to earn them back.” Mr. Dau said that the loss of members now is due in part to misinformation about the proposed health care reform; so AARP is now posting “Health Reform: Get the Facts” on its web page.

                http://www.aarp.org/health/articles/...the_facts.html

                This article brings up the fact that much of the debate is being driven by special interests that are “deliberately kicking up clouds of dust to obscure the facts,” and engaging in misinformation and fear-mongering. In AARP’s Health Action Now page, there is a section called “Myths vs Facts” to help their members understand the issues. Here they clear up the myth that health care reform is socialized medicine, the myth that health care reform means rationed care, the myth that health care reform will hurt Medicare, the myth that health care reform is too expensive, and the myth that health care reform means the government can make life-and-death decisions for you

                http://aarp.convio.net/site/PageNavi...Myths_vs_Facts

                AARP has other articles on their site that helps its members understand the issue of health care reform. For instance, “Health Care Reform: The Assault on Truth,” where they talk about the “tsunami of rumors, myths, fear-mongering and misinformation” being perpetuated by opponents.

                http://bulletin.aarp.org/yourhealth/...e_reform2.html

                The author, Patricia Barry, quotes Kathleen Hall Jamieson, director of the Annenberg Public Policy Center at the University of Pennsylvania, who codirects FactCheck.org, as saying “What we’re seeing is a flood of viral content that distorts the Obama effort to reform health care.”

                What we are seeing are right-wing mini-mobs egged on by corporate interests running wild, propagating smears and misinformation in an effort to derail health care debate. The press dresses this up as news, and hands over countless hours of free airtime to those whose sole purpose is to spread as much fear as possible. Sarah Palin is gleefully tapping into the unrest and stoking fear in her Facebook page, and it’s all leading up to one last mass demonstration in Washington next month; and Republican leaders want to turn this into election victories next year.

                But these mini-mobs are attacking even Republican representatives in their maniacal zeal. One of the GOP’s most reliable conservatives, Rep. Bob Inglis of South Carolina, was shouted down at a recent town hall meeting when he criticized a conservative broadcaster for spreading the rumor that children would soon be forced to receive swine flu vaccinations. Rep. Inglis told the crowd that “You cannot build a movement on something that is not credible.” This is when his own constituents turned on him. He also said that he found opposition tending toward hostility that “went straight through to hysteria.”

                http://www.boston.com/news/nation/wa...n_health_care/

                What’s not being talked about is the fact that medical debt is the principal cause of bankruptcy in the United States. In a clinical research study called “Medical Bankruptcy in the United States, 2007,” the American Journal of Medicine says that “getting sick is a factor in 62 percent of personal bankrupties--an increase from just eight percent in 1981.

                http://www.pnhp.org/new_bankruptcy_s...uptcy-2009.pdf

                According to the Institute of Medicine, the U.S. is the “only wealthy, industrialized nation that does not ensure that all citizens have health coverage.”

                http://www.iom.edu/?id=17848

                A 2008 report by the Commonwealth Fund ranked the U.S. last in the quality of health care among the 19 compared countries, in spite of the massive amounts spent on health care in the U.S.

                http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/extract/337/jul21_1/a889

                Health care reform is important, and the concerted efforts at derailing it through disinformation, lies, mobs shouting down any chance of rational debate, is a distraction that the right wing faction is perpetuating to the point of insanity.

                http://c2.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/i...8736bd3925.jpg

                Comment


                • Smyrna,
                  I don’t know what health care program would be best, but certainly we need some sort of public option for all citizens. Without a public option, there is no reform. There is absolutely no incentive for any hospital or insurance company to contain costs. You will be charged $5 for an aspirin and $10 for a cookie. Daily room charges can be $5,000 a day. We used to joke about the $500 hammer purchased by the military but this is a national crisis! The insurance companies are strong lobbies against any public option yet insurance costs are out of control. Not everyone is fortunate enough to have a job which will pay for family insurance. With family coverage over $1,000 per month, many without insurance from work simply cannot afford to pay for coverage. Even if it is made available for a short period of time through the COBRA law, it is still often unaffordable.

                  You claim to be Catholic. Catholic Charities is one of the most generous organizations in the world.
                  Why are you so opposed to giving to those in need? You seem to have some strange interpretations of the OT. Interpretations which one needs to move away from reasonability into the realm of mythology. Yet, you don’t take serious the direct quotes of Jesus from the NT which are very clear to even the casual observer. How do you reconcile this in your own mind?

                  Matt 25:40-46 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

                  Comment


                  • "For instance, “Health Care Reform: The Assault on Truth,” where they talk about the “tsunami of rumors, myths, fear-mongering and misinformation” being perpetuated by opponents."

                    I'm sure they won't be mentioning that Obama has advocated a single payer program in the past, and either forgot or didn't think anyone would find out.

                    I'm sure they also won't be mentioning that the White House is apparently having trouble getting everyone on the "right" page, i.e they appear to be backing off the public option but also claiming at the same time they aren't.

                    I suppose they also aren't mentioning that the Democrats are trying to shove trhough this socialist program without any consideration for the Republican proposals, or any of those American citizens who vehemently oppose the plan to take over such a huge part of the economy.

                    The problem here is, while they claim that opponents are angry mobs of racists, kooks, and "right wingnuts" the democrats aren't being up fornt and considering that if they succeed in passing a hige spending bill such as this one, they will go through the point of no return, which is what they want, because as in the case of both Canada and the UK, the health care system there have cost way too much money and are overloaded with administrative costs.

                    "A 2008 report by the Commonwealth Fund ranked the U.S. last in the quality of health care among the 19 compared countries, in spite of the massive amounts spent on health care in the U.S."

                    Uh, huh, that's why people from all over the world come to the U.S for treatments.

                    "Health care reform is important, and the concerted efforts at derailing it through disinformation, lies, mobs shouting down any chance of rational debate, is a distraction that the right wing faction is perpetuating to the point of insanity."

                    There is no sense in rational debate when the Democrats have already threatened to try and pass a bill without the GOP.

                    "According to the Institute of Medicine, the U.S. is the “only wealthy, industrialized nation that does not ensure that all citizens have health coverage.”

                    BS, it is a law that anyone who has to go to the hospital has to be treated regardless of their ability to pay.

                    "What’s not being talked about is the fact that medical debt is the principal cause of bankruptcy in the United States. In a clinical research study called “Medical Bankruptcy in the United States, 2007,” the American Journal of Medicine says that “getting sick is a factor in 62 percent of personal bankrupties--an increase from just eight percent in 1981."

                    Sounds like a problem that one can blame "greedy" insurance companies, pharmaceutical companies, doctors and hospitals for.

                    But how about the many people who refuse to buy health insurance from their employers? But they have no problem spending money on fancy cars, boats, etc. And that isn't some small number of people, either.

                    How about the number of illegal immigrants we already are paying for? And not just health care either.

                    As all this stuff about disinformation, how about the many cases of Obama and his allies claiming things about this bill while doing TV interviews and speeches, that contradict what is actually written in the bill as it stands now?

                    This bill should be the most closely scrutinized bill in history, and it is a bit disingenuous of the Democrats to play to the fears of people by trying to rush it through.

                    "“With a membership this big, there will be differences of opinion with our advocacy positions,” Mr. Dau said. “But history has born out that many of our members come back. We want to earn them back.” Mr. Dau said that the loss of members now is due in part to misinformation about the proposed health care reform; so AARP is now posting “Health Reform: Get the Facts” on its web page."

                    We'll see who gets the facts straight, or will we see just another round of contradictions.

                    As for AARP's numbers, hey, they do offer many discounts on things, so even if people disagree with their politics, free stuff will many times get people to play the game.

                    But I for one will never join that sleazy organization:

                    http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pitt.../s_310063.html

                    Some excepts:

                    "It has 36 million members and claims to speak to government for all of them on important political matters like tax policy and health care. AARP also claims to be nonpartisan, which is what liberal special-interest groups that push for more government in our lives always say. "

                    "AARP's powerful propaganda machine, media allies and army of faithful voters are a big reason the push to allow working Americans to divert a third of their own payroll taxes into private investment accounts is in such trouble."

                    Comment


                    • Ba2:

                      "I don’t know what health care program would be best, but certainly we need some sort of public option for all citizens. Without a public option, there is no reform."

                      That's not "reform" that socializing health care, which doesn't work.

                      That's their line,(no public option, no reform) but even the White House, Obama and HHS secretary don't agree with you:

                      http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090816/..._care_overhaul

                      But, since they have no clue what they are doing, they are now backpedaling, and scheming to force it through without the GOP.

                      If they even try and do that, they are toast next year, and may be even now.

                      Do your homework before posting.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by smyrna View Post
                        Ba2:

                        "I don’t know what health care program would be best, but certainly we need some sort of public option for all citizens. Without a public option, there is no reform."

                        That's not "reform" that socializing health care, which doesn't work.

                        That's their line,(no public option, no reform) but even the White House, Obama and HHS secretary don't agree with you:

                        http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090816/..._care_overhaul

                        But, since they have no clue what they are doing, they are now backpedaling, and scheming to force it through without the GOP.

                        If they even try and do that, they are toast next year, and may be even now.

                        Do your homework before posting.
                        More of the same is not reform. If the administration allows the package to go through without a public option, there will be no reform and we will continue to see costs skyrocket. How do you propose we contain costs if there is no public option? What do you propose to do for the individual who loses his job and can’t afford insurance? Or the working poor who don’t get paid insurance?

                        Only the very wealthy and a very few fortunate individuals (via donation) who make some headlines get to travel to the US to get health care. The wealthy in all countries get the best care. I don't really have a problem with that. We do a few things well and we should continue to do those things well, cancer treatment as an example. But, like I said, no one in any of these other countries is clamoring to change over to our system. The typical citizen does not come running to our country for any of the more common health problems. In fact, an uninsured friend of mine traveled to Canada to have his lasik surgery done because it was considered the best in the world and cost half of what it would here. So, people travel both ways.

                        I do my homework very thoroughly. I look at all sides of each argument. Speaking of socialized health care, somewhere around 65% of all citizens have their health care paid for through taxes. This works pretty well for those 65%. The fact is, although I rarely use it (I get insurance at work and it is more convienient to use this option) both Dodge and I am eligible for complete government health care. Tell me, do you think either I, or Dodge, or anyone who supports a public health option is purposely trying to hurt our country? You act as if you believe this. Do you think we would want to hurt our own system?

                        Why did you skip over the rest of my post? Why did you skip over some of my entire postings? You made an issue of this when I missed one line of yours, which I later address!

                        Comment


                        • B]MORE "CHANGE" YOU CAN BELIEVE IN:[/B]

                          http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090819/...re_consultants

                          By SHARON THEIMER, Associated Press Writer Sharon Theimer, Associated Press Writer – Wed Aug 19, 6:08 pm ET
                          WASHINGTON – President Barack Obama's push for a national health care overhaul is providing a financial windfall in the election offseason to Democratic consulting firms that are closely connected to the president and two top advisers.

                          Coalitions of interest groups running at least $24 million in pro-overhaul ads hired GMMB, which worked for Obama's 2008 campaign and whose partners include a top Obama campaign strategist. They also hired AKPD Message and Media, which was founded by David Axelrod, a top adviser to Obama's campaign and now to the White House. AKPD did work for Obama's campaign, and Axelrod's son Michael and Obama's campaign manager David Plouffe work there.

                          The firms were hired by Americans for Stable Quality Care and its predecessor, Healthy Economy Now. Each was formed by a coalition of interests with big stakes in health care policy, including the drug maker lobby PhRMA, the American Medical Association, the Service Employees International Union and Families USA, which calls itself "The Voice for Health Care Consumers."

                          Their ads press for changes in health care policy. Healthy Economy Now made one of the same arguments that Obama does: that health care costs are delaying the country's economic recovery and that changes are needed if the economy is to rebound.

                          There is no evidence that Axelrod directly profited from the group's ads. Axelrod took steps to separate himself from AKPD when he joined Obama's White House. AKPD owes him $2 million from his stock sale and will make preset payments over four years, starting with $350,000 on Dec. 31, according to Axelrod's personal financial disclosure report.

                          A larger issue is a network of relationships and overlapping interests that resembles some seen in past administrations and could prove a problem as Obama tries to win the public over on health care and fulfill his promise to change the way Washington works, said Sheila Krumholz, executive director of the Center for Responsive Politics, a government watchdog group.

                          GOODBYE DemocRATS and their socilaistic healthcare proposals. This should be the nail in the coffin.

                          -----------------------------------------------------------------
                          Ba2:

                          "More of the same is not reform. If the administration allows the package to go through without a public option, there will be no reform and we will continue to see costs skyrocket."

                          And who is going to pay for all that? Not the government, after all, they are out of money and can't sell much more debt to cover the money they are printing.

                          For a government that thinks they can spend their way out of debt. (Biden):

                          “We’re going to go bankrupt as a nation. Now, people when I say that look at me and say, ‘What are you talking about, Joe? You’re telling me we have to go spend money to keep from going bankrupt?’

                          “The answer is yes, that's what I’m telling you.”

                          What an economics genius. And now they want to spend another trillion dollars and more with just another pork filled bill, burdensome administrative costs, and socialistic control over the rights of people to choose the health care they want.

                          I asked Dodge where he thinks they got the "46 million uninsured". He hasn't answered.

                          Perhaps he googled "46 million uninsured wrong" oh, okay, maybe he missed the "wrong" part, but it is. Just try it.

                          You apparently get your study materials out of a Cracker Jack box.

                          "Only the very wealthy and a very few fortunate individuals (via donation) who make some headlines get to travel to the US to get health care. The wealthy in all countries get the best care."

                          Of course, that's called capitalism. And you get the best food, cars, electronics, etc. You, and your ilk want to penalize people for their ability to get wealthy, and hand over their money through confiscatory taxation and other schemes to people who sit on their porches and dirnk, do drugs, and basically are sucking off those who work hard for a living.

                          Of course, like any system, the current health care system has flaws, but to go to the extreme of having the government taking it over, and through dishonest means on top of it, is just unacceptable.

                          "Tell me, do you think either I, or Dodge, or anyone who supports a public health option is purposely trying to hurt our country? You act as if you believe this. Do you think we would want to hurt our own system?"

                          No, I just think, like the rest of the Democrats, that you aren't considering how to pay for it after all the Democrats have forced their pet projects into the Omnibus and Stimulus bills.

                          Comment


                          • "You claim to be Catholic. Catholic Charities is one of the most generous organizations in the world.
                            Why are you so opposed to giving to those in need?"

                            Jesus said: Render unto Ceasar that which is Ceasar's."

                            But in this government, they are taking what is rightfully ours. Our tax rates wouldn't be so high were it not for senseless spending, and a philosophy of "we have to spend ouir way out of bankruptcy."

                            Yes, I'd rather through my own choice send my money to Catholic Charities rather then have Obama's government take it and waste it, or even worse, finance abortions.

                            But they even want to limit tax deductions from my charitbale giving:

                            http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/...tical-friends/

                            Too bad for NoBama, like many of his other atrocious plans, it didn't fly.

                            Comment


                            • "Why did you skip over the rest of my post? Why did you skip over some of my entire postings?"

                              Between you and Dodge, who thinks He's overwhelmed by the info I have presented, it's like a Gary Jennings novel, when you add all the links too.

                              But some of it I won't address at all, because I won't waste my time with such garbage. Especially when it comes to the hypocrisy and arrogance of the Democrats.

                              They really don't care what people think of their plans to destroy the economy via of devaluing the U.S dollar.

                              Remember: if countries refuse to buy more debt from the US, the dollar goes down the toilet.

                              Socializing health care will only add to the deficit. There are options to this.

                              1. Enforce immigration laws.
                              2. Torte Reform
                              3. Go to national flat sales tax.
                              4. Allow the free market to operate as an actual free market.
                              5. Stop inflating figures to support an agenda.
                              6. Stop government waste.
                              7. Vote Republican, vote out fiscally irresponsible Republicans.
                              8. Raise tax credits for charitable contributions.
                              9. Begin IRA style health savings accounts.
                              10. Stop Social Security payments to people with over $1m. in their accounts at retirement.

                              Comment


                              • Smyrna,
                                There is a certain meanness of spirit in your stance. For whatever reason, you continuously ignore basic needs of people and our societal obligations to address them. You claim to be Catholic, which I seriously doubt, yet your stance is pretty much opposite what comes out of the Vatican or even the Catholic Health Association of the United States. Have a look at their site, http://www.catholichealthcare.us/OurVision/principles/ which has a clear explanation of the Catholic stance and links to statements from Pope Benedict XVI himself.
                                Many Catholics I know may not like Obama, but I don’t know of one practicing Catholic who doesn’t support the health care reform being discussed. Both the Pope and the Catholic church in America strongly support a public option. I see you never address my scriptural post:

                                “…you don’t take serious the direct quotes of Jesus from the NT which are very clear to even the casual observer. How do you reconcile this in your own mind?

                                Matt 25:40-46 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal…”

                                As a Catholic, you must believe you can lose your salvation. How do you sleep nights knowing you don’t follow the commands of Jesus?

                                BTW: Until the last few years, I have always been a card carrying member of the Republican party. They still consider me a member but I have become disenchanted with what has become of my party. Not that the Democrats are any better. It seems the radicals in both parties have taken control.

                                So you won’t address my posts because you look at it as garbage? More proof that you refuse to consider anyone’s opinion when it disagrees with yours. Actually, it looks to me that you ignore posts whenever it suits you or whenever it becomes too difficult to respond. BTW, I am not overwhelmed with your posts and I doubt that anyone else is either. Do you ever research your own facts? Don’t bother answering, of course you don’t.

                                Comment

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