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  • #31
    Originally posted by truth_child View Post
    turtle no you still have answered my question please do so
    to the one who said i was on another rant. what rant are they referring to now ... because i said im saved BY THE BLOOD OF JESUS well yes i am
    I answer you, I just never heard the word office before. I am trinterian One God head in three persons, that How I was taught it. That is why I love John 14 so much it explains it.

    Comment


    • #32
      if you have studied oneness you know about the offices and there are people on here who beleive in the offices
      no either you do or dont beleive in three offices or THREE PERSONS IN ONE GOD

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by truth_child View Post
        if you have studied oneness you know about the offices and there are people on here who beleive in the offices
        no either you do or dont beleive in three offices or THREE PERSONS IN ONE GOD
        Three offices sound like our judical, house and the president. Not um God. Come one explain this office thing once and for all.

        Comment


        • #34
          Turtle: I would like your view on the following...

          Originally posted by turtle View Post
          I am tritarian TC and the fact remains this. No matter how you describe the trinity it is still the same. If you take three chemicals mix them together you still have one thing, now if you separate those chemicals they are nothing alike, yet together they are one united. Body of Christ is like that. Now you take water and turn it to ice, steam, or use it as liquid, it is still water. God is like that. See the attributes of God the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit are they not the same.

          John 14:7 KJV
          (7) If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.

          John 14:10-12 KJV
          (10) Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
          (11) Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.
          (12) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

          John 14:16-17 KJV
          (16) And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
          (17) Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.


          One must remember Christ is also teaching His disciples how to pray in this last verse so others receive the Holy Spirit. This is a private discussion between the disciples and Him.
          Dear Turtle:

          I wanted to respectfully request your take on the following.

          I note above, that you quote, John 14:7, 10-12 and 16,17. However you do not quote verse 20. (I am using the NIV Bible for this as found on www.biblegateway.com)

          I note, that John 14:9 and 10, states, “Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'? Don't you believe that [I am in the Father], and that [the Father is in me]? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work.” (brackets added).

          Now at first glance, taking Jesus’ simple and clearly stated words, without considering the context or reading from other scriptures in the Bible, one could easily, reasonably and fairly conclude that Jesus is indeed God! However, one only has to simply look a little further on in this same Chapter of John 14, to verse 20, where Jesus states “On that day you will realize that [I am in my Father], and [you are in me], and [I am in you].” Now, it appears that we have total and clear clarification, for what is expressed above in verses 9 and 10, with simple and clear language (without any outside sources) and without any doubt, we KNOW that his disciples (including us) are not “literally” in or inside Jesus, any more than Jesus is in or inside his Father, (since if you are using this verse to support this idea) but according to these verses, rather, they are, as we are (as supported above), “one” with Jesus, meaning “one” in purpose, and “one” in spirit (Please See 1 Corinthians 6:17) as Jesus is “one” in purpose and in spirit with his Father, therefore, it is not fair to use these verses to mean, that God and Jesus are the same person any more than his disciples, nor you and I are Jesus, or in Jesus literally, as one person or being! In the end if believe in the Trinity doctrine, then know that at the very least, if you are being fair, that the scripture you quoted above for this, does not state Jesus is God or God is Jesus in a literal way! (It also does not discuss the Holy Spirit here either for the third part of this doctrine).

          It is interesting to note, that the NIV, states at 1 Corinthians 2:16, “For who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct him?"[a] But we have the mind of Christ.” Please note two things; 1. Jesus was already back in heaven when these verses were inspired to be written and; 2 how this verse completely separates the mind of “the Lord” from the “mind of Christ” which would make no sense, if they are the same person (or spirit being) and have the same mind literally. Other Bibles use “the LORD” (in capital letters as a substitute for the Divine Name, God’s personal name) in order to separate and distinguish it from the “mind of Christ” showing two different minds from two separate spirit beings!

          I welcome your thoughts.

          TonyP
          Last edited by praetorian; 09-18-2008, 07:21 PM. Reason: underlining did not show--put it in brackets

          Comment


          • #35
            in different places in the bible the trinity is CLEARLY TAUGHT

            Comment


            • #36
              TC...We have danced this dance before....

              TC:

              It would be really kind if someone would be fair, by FIRST addressing the POST, and then adding a different element into the subject matter!!!

              However, since you raised this, the first question I have for you (as you and I have danced this dance before) is: What do you mean by "CLEARLY TAUGHT?"

              As Clearly Taught to me, implies simplicity like "I am going to take the trash out" and you would have no issues understanding this either. It is when religion gets involved, that the simple words "I am going to take the trash out" really mean you are going to the movies, or something else, as you add your take on things, from preconceived ideas, dogma, creeds and theology; thus, if you can truly, CLEARLY show the Trinity Doctrine from the Bible, show it, but don't interpret it as this is NOT Bible but you, and or someone else telling what the plain and simple words of the Bible means!!!!!

              Now, please let Turtle or someone else, (you too) respond on point and NOT change the subject matter, K!!!!!

              TonyP

              Comment


              • #37
                in geneesis where it says that GOD SAID LET US MAKE MAN INOUR OWN IMAGEHE was not talking to angels
                in john where JESUS PRAYED TO HIS FATHER at the baptism ( gospels) when JESUS WAS BAPPTISED the heavens OPENED OR AT LEAST ENOUGH TO SEE THE FATHER SPOKE FROM HEAVE THE SON WAS IN THE WATER THE HOLY GHOST CAME DOWN AS A DOVE ONE TWO THREE

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by praetorian View Post
                  Dear Turtle:

                  I wanted to respectfully request your take on the following.

                  I note above, that you quote, John 14:7, 10-12 and 16,17. However you do not quote verse 20. (I am using the NIV Bible for this as found on www.biblegateway.com)

                  I note, that John 14:9 and 10, states, “Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'? Don't you believe that [I am in the Father], and that [the Father is in me]? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work.” (brackets added).

                  Now at first glance, taking Jesus’ simple and clearly stated words, without considering the context or reading from other scriptures in the Bible, one could easily, reasonably and fairly conclude that Jesus is indeed God! However, one only has to simply look a little further on in this same Chapter of John 14, to verse 20, where Jesus states “On that day you will realize that [I am in my Father], and [you are in me], and [I am in you].” Now, it appears that we have total and clear clarification, for what is expressed above in verses 9 and 10, with simple and clear language (without any outside sources) and without any doubt, we KNOW that his disciples (including us) are not “literally” in or inside Jesus, any more than Jesus is in or inside his Father, (since if you are using this verse to support this idea) but according to these verses, rather, they are, as we are (as supported above), “one” with Jesus, meaning “one” in purpose, and “one” in spirit (Please See 1 Corinthians 6:17) as Jesus is “one” in purpose and in spirit with his Father, therefore, it is not fair to use these verses to mean, that God and Jesus are the same person any more than his disciples, nor you and I are Jesus, or in Jesus literally, as one person or being! In the end if believe in the Trinity doctrine, then know that at the very least, if you are being fair, that the scripture you quoted above for this, does not state Jesus is God or God is Jesus in a literal way! (It also does not discuss the Holy Spirit here either for the third part of this doctrine).

                  It is interesting to note, that the NIV, states at 1 Corinthians 2:16, “For who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct him?"[a] But we have the mind of Christ.” Please note two things; 1. Jesus was already back in heaven when these verses were inspired to be written and; 2 how this verse completely separates the mind of “the Lord” from the “mind of Christ” which would make no sense, if they are the same person (or spirit being) and have the same mind literally. Other Bibles use “the LORD” (in capital letters as a substitute for the Divine Name, God’s personal name) in order to separate and distinguish it from the “mind of Christ” showing two different minds from two separate spirit beings!

                  I welcome your thoughts.

                  TonyP
                  I hope I can clarify for you. Let's just look at Jesus who He is. First we know He was from the beginning of time, If I need to go into detail I will. Okay

                  John 1:1-3 KJV
                  (1) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
                  (2) The same was in the beginning with God.
                  (3) All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

                  Now I am going to try very hard to explain this, but it is a bit hard to understand. First one must realize Christ is fully God and fully human. Just like I am fully part of my dad and part of my mom. The exception come when we realize that Christ is not just spiritual human but also spiritually God, because His parents. What support is there for this.

                  John 1:14 KJV
                  (14) And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

                  strongs
                  begotten

                  μονογενής monogenēs
                  mon-og-en-ace
                  From G3441 and G1096; only born, that is, sole: - only (begotten, child).


                  Father

                  G3962 πατήρ
                  patēr
                  pat-ayr'
                  Apparently a primary word; a “father” (literally or figuratively, near or more remote): - father, parent.

                  Now do we know That the father is in us or that Christ is in us. That not hard to explain. Read the discussion of Nicodemus and Jesus.

                  John 3:5-16 KJV
                  (5) Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
                  (6) That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
                  (7) Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
                  (8) The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
                  (9) Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?
                  (10) Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?
                  (11) Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.
                  (12) If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
                  (13) And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
                  (14) And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
                  (15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
                  (16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

                  Now the minute you believe and receive Christ the Spirit of God comes in your heart. You fleshly spirit is still there.

                  Revelation 3:20 KJV
                  (20) Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

                  Romans 8:14-16 KJV
                  (14) For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
                  (15) For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
                  (16) The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

                  1 John 4:13 KJV
                  (13) Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.


                  Galatians 4:6 KJV
                  (6) And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.

                  Forgive me if I have rerouted your scripture text to some others.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by truth_child View Post
                    in geneesis where it says that GOD SAID LET US MAKE MAN INOUR OWN IMAGEHE was not talking to angels
                    in john where JESUS PRAYED TO HIS FATHER at the baptism ( gospels) when JESUS WAS BAPPTISED the heavens OPENED OR AT LEAST ENOUGH TO SEE THE FATHER SPOKE FROM HEAVE THE SON WAS IN THE WATER THE HOLY GHOST CAME DOWN AS A DOVE ONE TWO THREE

                    TC:

                    Now here you go again…..Let me try this another way. (First, you are taking away from the fact that I requested a commentary on a fair post on scripture, from someone else, on a specific matter-scripture, nothing more and nothing less—with that said)

                    Here goes: Genesis does in fact make clear that God was indeed speaking to someone else, not HIMSELF!!!! As if he had MPD’s. Job Chapter 38 makes clear that the angels shouted for joy at God’s creating the material universe, so your stating he was not speaking to angels, or other spirit beings like himself is NOT accurate. Also, take the assumptive position that God was indeed speaking ONLY to his Son Jesus hiding out from the angels, like they were out to lunch or something; first the scripture in Genesis does not state what you express it does, CLEARLY, but just the opposite, without your having to interpret it! PERIOD!!!!!!! Tell me, in whose likeness are the angels created since man was also created in God’s image and yet we are NOT God!!!!!

                    Your own words are against your position as you further state, “JESUS PRAYED TO HIS FATHER” meaning in simple words, Jesus was not praying to himself as the scripture plainly states so. I will prove it!!!! A person says, ‘Billy prayed to his Father’ John, who was a good man that died and went to heaven! You would easily understand that Billy is Not his Father John at all!!! Why, because NOTHING in the plain and simple words, express this at all!!!!!!

                    You have nothing but dogma, creeds and theology, teachings of men, that you believe in, so that you can force fit the scriptures into what you want them to mean!!!!

                    Again, your own words are against you, “THE FATHER SPOKE FROM HEAVEN” I will prove it to you. “Billy’s Father spoke from his office’, (heaven etc) you would clearly know that Billy and his Father are not the same from the simple and plain words. Now, if you believe that from these simple words, that Billy is really is own Dad, the same person, and at the same time his own grandpa, so be it, but you cannot get that from those plain and simple words by themselves!!!!

                    That is braining washing at it’s best, when I say Go, and you understand that it means Stop!!!!! Or you don’t understand language at all!!!! The same with the Holy Spirit (as the Greek does not use the word Ghost).

                    If your own words are clear to you, I have a bridge to nowhere that I can let you have for a “steal” at 1 Million dollars and no, you will not have to actually “steal” it, but buy it!!! See how simple the words are!!!!!

                    TonyP

                    Now, let Turtle or someone address the post above, so that it does not get lost in your taking me to another place or places!!!! K

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Turtle.....you are simply uninformed.....

                      Dear Turtle:

                      Thank you for your reply, however, now I can see how truly confused you are as will be demonstrated below.

                      Now, I note, you did not address the matter of my post on point, but instead chose to take me into another direction and while that is OK, it DOES NOT ADDRESS THE MATTER OF MY POST; I specifically brought up that if you were using scriptures at John 14, to support the Trinity, verse 20 of that same chapter makes clear that it does not.

                      Now let us turn to one of my favorite discussions and I will do my best to keep it simple for you!!!!! Here you take me to John 1:1-3 KJV.

                      I must ask you, with regards to John 1:1-3 have you ever done the research yourself personally, by going to a library and looking at a Greek text or have you done what most people do, especially on this board, and that is, take the word of someone else and make it your own?

                      First and foremost, at first glance and at best, these verses, (especially verse 1) if taken the way you want them to read, or as expressed here above, would mean that God and Jesus are the same person-being, or spirit creature, however, this verse does NOT support a Trinity as one needs three to support this and not two, as it does here! Second, if this were the only manner, this verse was rendered in all Bibles, then you again, would have at best, a duality, duo-ity, but not a Trinity.

                      Now, please take a note of the following English Bibles and how they translate John 1:1 or 1-3. Also take note that this is taken from the following WebPages in order for you to verify and validate this for yourself;

                      http://www.tyndale.cam.ac.uk/Scriptures/index.htm

                      http://www.tyndale.cam.ac.uk/Scriptu...mpare/name.htm

                      1. (IV) Authorized Version by Joseph Smith (1867)

                      “In the beginning was the gospel preached through the Son. And the gospel was the word, and the word was with the Son, and the Son was with God, and the Son was of God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not anything made which was made.”

                      2. (MNT) Moffatt New Translation (1922) George H. Doran Company (1922)[Tyndale House, Cambridge, United Kingdom] “The Logos existed in the very beginning, the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine.”

                      3. (NEB) New English Bible. (1970) “When all things began, the Word already was. The Word dwelt with God, and what God was, the Word was.”

                      4. (SGAT) An American Translation, Smith-Goodspeed (1931) University of Chicago Press (1931), “In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine. It was he that was with God in the beginning. Everything came into existence through him, and apart from him nothing came to be.”

                      5. (WET) Wuest Expanded Translation (1961) Eerdmans (1961)
                      “In the beginning the Word was existing. And the Word was in fellowship with God the Father. And the Word was as to His essence absolute deity. This Word was in the beginning in fellowship with God the Father. All things through His intermediate agency came into being, and without Him there came into being not even one thing which has come into existence.”

                      6. The Authentic New Testament (1958) New American Library (1958) [Tyndale House, Cambridge, United Kingdom] “In the beginning was the Word. And the Word was with God. So the Word was divine.”

                      7. (BNT) Barclay New Testament (1969). "Collins (vol. 1 in 1968; vol. 2 in 1969)[Tyndale House, Cambridge, United Kingdom] “When the world began, the Word was already there. The Word was with God, and the nature of the Word was the same as the nature of God.”

                      8. (CNT) Cassier New Testament (1989) William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company (1989) [Tyndale House, Cambridge, United Kingdom] “It was the Word that was at the very beginning; and the Word was by the side of God, and the Word was the very same as God.”

                      9. (ISV) International Standard (1998) Davidson Press (1998)[Tyndale House, Cambridge, United Kingdom] “In the beginning, the Word existed. The Word was with God. Through him all things were made, and apart from him nothing was made that has been made”

                      10. (ONT) The Original New Testament (1985) Harper and Row (1985)[Tyndale House, Cambridge, United Kingdom] “'In the Beginning was the Word. And the Word was with God. So the Word was divine.”

                      11. The Orthodox Jewish Brit Chadasha (1997) AFI International Publishers (1997) [Tyndale House, Cambridge, United Kingdom] “Bereshis (In the Beginning) was the Dvar Hashem [YESHAYAH 55: 11; BERE**** 1:1], and the Dvar Hashem was agav (along with) Hashem [MISHLE 8:30; 30:4], and the Dvar Hashem was nothing less, by nature, than Elohim!”

                      12. (PRNT) The Restored New Testament 1914 John M. Pryse / John M. Watkins (1925) [Tyndale House, Cambridge, United Kingdom] “The divine Thought inhered in the primordial Element, And proximate to the Unmanifested God was this divine Thought; And verily the divine Thought was the secondary God”

                      13. (REB) Revised English Bible (1989) Oxford and Cambridge Universities Presses (1989) [Tyndale House, Cambridge, United Kingdom] “In the beginning the Word already was. The Word was in God's presence, and what God was, the Word was.”

                      14. (SV) Scholars Version (The Five Gospels) (1993) Macmillan (1993)[Tyndale House, Cambridge, United Kingdom] “In the beginning there was the divine word and wisdom. The divine word and wisdom was there with God, and it was what God was.”

                      15. (TEV) Today’s English Version (1976) [The Good News Bible] (@) United Bible Societies (1976) [Tyndale House, Cambridge, United Kingdom] “Before the world was created, the Word already existed; he was with God, and he was the same as God.”

                      16. (UNT) The Unvarnished New Testament (1991) Phanes Press (1991) [Tyndale House, Cambridge, United Kingdom] “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was toward God, and God was what the Word was.”

                      End of English Bible references.

                      Now, to be fair, there are many more English translations on this same web page, and elsewhere, that translate these verses similar or identical to the one you used, however, it goes to clearly establish that this is NOT a matter that is simply cut and dry, as at first glance!!!!!

                      In fact, reading these varying differences in translation from English Bible’s from around the world, should at the very least, raise legitimate issues and concern, that there must be something in the original Greek text that causes this to be so, as the reading of it one way, tells you that Jesus is God, while a reading of it in other ways shows that Jesus is NOT but rather instead, of the same form or substance of God but is NOT God. (NOTE: When I say form or substance, you would not argue if I said your child was like you, human, or humankind, and so with Jesus who is like God, in that he is a spirit or spirit creature just as God and the angels are).

                      Now let us get into this with greater detail. First note, that in the Greek/English, this would read, something like the following below;

                      In the Greek, (spelling somewhat phonetically in English) this scripture reads… “In the beginning was The (Ho) Word (Logos), and The (Ho) Word (Logos) was with God (Ton Theon), and The (Ho) Word (Logos) was God (Theos).” Please note the distinction between the first mention of God that in Greek it is “Ton Theon”, verses the second mention of God, as “Theos”, without the “Ton” before it. (More on this below) In Greek there are several words that translate into the English word “the” and “O” (pronounced HO) and “TOV” (pronounced TON) are two of them!

                      It is interesting to note that many so-called Christian translators take the liberty to omit the Greek word, Tov, making like it does not exist, usually by putting a – (dash) under it in English, like it doesn’t mean anything, but it is a real word in the Greek. In Greek this TOV (not a dash) is another word for our English word “The” like Ho is also The. And by keeping it blank, rendering it meaningless, serves to confuse, God (Theos) with God (Ton Theon), with theos and theon being subjugated words for God in Greek, though which are distinguished by the Greek word “Tov”, for “the” in English; in other words, there is a difference between “God” and “The God”.

                      Now that you have this information before you, why don’t you do some real research and do some soul searching to understand why this is so, but again, like in John 14, what you refer me to, DOES not support a Trinity!!!!!

                      TonyP

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        no you explain how three were at the baptisim if there are only ONE of THEM AND when i say this i am talking about the trinity

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by praetorian View Post
                          Tony P
                          Answer is under your question.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by praetorian View Post
                            Dear Turtle:

                            Thank you for your reply, however, now I can see how truly confused you are as will be demonstrated below.

                            Now, I note, you did not address the matter of my post on point, but instead chose to take me into another direction and while that is OK, it DOES NOT ADDRESS THE MATTER OF MY POST; I specifically brought up that if you were using scriptures at John 14, to support the Trinity, verse 20 of that same chapter makes clear that it does not.

                            Now let us turn to one of my favorite discussions and I will do my best to keep it simple for you!!!!! Here you take me to John 1:1-3 KJV.

                            I must ask you, with regards to John 1:1-3 have you ever done the research yourself personally, by going to a library and looking at a Greek text or have you done what most people do, especially on this board, and that is, take the word of someone else and make it your own?

                            First and foremost, at first glance and at best, these verses, (especially verse 1) if taken the way you want them to read, or as expressed here above, would mean that God and Jesus are the same person-being, or spirit creature, however, this verse does NOT support a Trinity as one needs three to support this and not two, as it does here! Second, if this were the only manner, this verse was rendered in all Bibles, then you again, would have at best, a duality, duo-ity, but not a Trinity.

                            Now, please take a note of the following English Bibles and how they translate John 1:1 or 1-3. Also take note that this is taken from the following WebPages in order for you to verify and validate this for yourself;

                            http://www.tyndale.cam.ac.uk/Scriptures/index.htm

                            http://www.tyndale.cam.ac.uk/Scriptu...mpare/name.htm

                            1. (IV) Authorized Version by Joseph Smith (1867)

                            “In the beginning was the gospel preached through the Son. And the gospel was the word, and the word was with the Son, and the Son was with God, and the Son was of God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not anything made which was made.”

                            2. (MNT) Moffatt New Translation (1922) George H. Doran Company (1922)[Tyndale House, Cambridge, United Kingdom] “The Logos existed in the very beginning, the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine.”

                            3. (NEB) New English Bible. (1970) “When all things began, the Word already was. The Word dwelt with God, and what God was, the Word was.”

                            4. (SGAT) An American Translation, Smith-Goodspeed (1931) University of Chicago Press (1931), “In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine. It was he that was with God in the beginning. Everything came into existence through him, and apart from him nothing came to be.”

                            5. (WET) Wuest Expanded Translation (1961) Eerdmans (1961)
                            “In the beginning the Word was existing. And the Word was in fellowship with God the Father. And the Word was as to His essence absolute deity. This Word was in the beginning in fellowship with God the Father. All things through His intermediate agency came into being, and without Him there came into being not even one thing which has come into existence.”

                            6. The Authentic New Testament (1958) New American Library (1958) [Tyndale House, Cambridge, United Kingdom] “In the beginning was the Word. And the Word was with God. So the Word was divine.”

                            7. (BNT) Barclay New Testament (1969). "Collins (vol. 1 in 1968; vol. 2 in 1969)[Tyndale House, Cambridge, United Kingdom] “When the world began, the Word was already there. The Word was with God, and the nature of the Word was the same as the nature of God.”

                            8. (CNT) Cassier New Testament (1989) William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company (1989) [Tyndale House, Cambridge, United Kingdom] “It was the Word that was at the very beginning; and the Word was by the side of God, and the Word was the very same as God.”

                            9. (ISV) International Standard (1998) Davidson Press (1998)[Tyndale House, Cambridge, United Kingdom] “In the beginning, the Word existed. The Word was with God. Through him all things were made, and apart from him nothing was made that has been made”

                            10. (ONT) The Original New Testament (1985) Harper and Row (1985)[Tyndale House, Cambridge, United Kingdom] “'In the Beginning was the Word. And the Word was with God. So the Word was divine.”

                            11. The Orthodox Jewish Brit Chadasha (1997) AFI International Publishers (1997) [Tyndale House, Cambridge, United Kingdom] “Bereshis (In the Beginning) was the Dvar Hashem [YESHAYAH 55: 11; BERE**** 1:1], and the Dvar Hashem was agav (along with) Hashem [MISHLE 8:30; 30:4], and the Dvar Hashem was nothing less, by nature, than Elohim!”

                            12. (PRNT) The Restored New Testament 1914 John M. Pryse / John M. Watkins (1925) [Tyndale House, Cambridge, United Kingdom] “The divine Thought inhered in the primordial Element, And proximate to the Unmanifested God was this divine Thought; And verily the divine Thought was the secondary God”

                            13. (REB) Revised English Bible (1989) Oxford and Cambridge Universities Presses (1989) [Tyndale House, Cambridge, United Kingdom] “In the beginning the Word already was. The Word was in God's presence, and what God was, the Word was.”

                            14. (SV) Scholars Version (The Five Gospels) (1993) Macmillan (1993)[Tyndale House, Cambridge, United Kingdom] “In the beginning there was the divine word and wisdom. The divine word and wisdom was there with God, and it was what God was.”

                            15. (TEV) Today’s English Version (1976) [The Good News Bible] (@) United Bible Societies (1976) [Tyndale House, Cambridge, United Kingdom] “Before the world was created, the Word already existed; he was with God, and he was the same as God.”

                            16. (UNT) The Unvarnished New Testament (1991) Phanes Press (1991) [Tyndale House, Cambridge, United Kingdom] “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was toward God, and God was what the Word was.”

                            End of English Bible references.

                            Now, to be fair, there are many more English translations on this same web page, and elsewhere, that translate these verses similar or identical to the one you used, however, it goes to clearly establish that this is NOT a matter that is simply cut and dry, as at first glance!!!!!

                            In fact, reading these varying differences in translation from English Bible’s from around the world, should at the very least, raise legitimate issues and concern, that there must be something in the original Greek text that causes this to be so, as the reading of it one way, tells you that Jesus is God, while a reading of it in other ways shows that Jesus is NOT but rather instead, of the same form or substance of God but is NOT God. (NOTE: When I say form or substance, you would not argue if I said your child was like you, human, or humankind, and so with Jesus who is like God, in that he is a spirit or spirit creature just as God and the angels are).

                            Now let us get into this with greater detail. First note, that in the Greek/English, this would read, something like the following below;

                            In the Greek, (spelling somewhat phonetically in English) this scripture reads… “In the beginning was The (Ho) Word (Logos), and The (Ho) Word (Logos) was with God (Ton Theon), and The (Ho) Word (Logos) was God (Theos).” Please note the distinction between the first mention of God that in Greek it is “Ton Theon”, verses the second mention of God, as “Theos”, without the “Ton” before it. (More on this below) In Greek there are several words that translate into the English word “the” and “O” (pronounced HO) and “TOV” (pronounced TON) are two of them!

                            It is interesting to note that many so-called Christian translators take the liberty to omit the Greek word, Tov, making like it does not exist, usually by putting a – (dash) under it in English, like it doesn’t mean anything, but it is a real word in the Greek. In Greek this TOV (not a dash) is another word for our English word “The” like Ho is also The. And by keeping it blank, rendering it meaningless, serves to confuse, God (Theos) with God (Ton Theon), with theos and theon being subjugated words for God in Greek, though which are distinguished by the Greek word “Tov”, for “the” in English; in other words, there is a difference between “God” and “The God”.

                            Now that you have this information before you, why don’t you do some real research and do some soul searching to understand why this is so, but again, like in John 14, what you refer me to, DOES not support a Trinity!!!!!

                            TonyP
                            You love to frustrate don't you. Now actually I am not frustrated.

                            John 14:20 KJV
                            (20) At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

                            I think I explained this quite will in my last post concerning the question. God spirit indwells us with ur spirit. In other words our spirit does not become God but He sups with us or indwells us.

                            Ephesians 3:17-19 KJV
                            (17) That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,
                            (18) May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height;
                            (19) And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.

                            In order for Him to indwell we must remember who is indwelling.

                            John 14:26 KJV
                            (26) But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

                            Now why do pentecostals before you even ask it say one must be baptized. One needs to be aware of who the Holy Spirit is beyond the fact He in dwells and teaches us. Only way to get that is though experience. Now hold on. Something most do not realize on the day of Pentecost they received what boldness to speak. How many people get saved, and lack boldness. Quite to many. Why is that. Why is there all of a sudden no strength to the fire. Simple they know little about the Holy Spirit. HOly Spirit is seldom taught in some groups. many do not know they have power in Jesus Name, or that if we ask we will receive, yet make sure that is in context to other scripture before naming and claiming.

                            Do we not in general use the term ghost or spirit meaning the same. But using the word Holy makes it God not just any spirit or ghost.

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                            • #44
                              tto the one who said end of english trans... i see you did not mention the kjv at all

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Turtle Part 2

                                Dear Turtle:

                                For the second part of your Post:

                                You mention you are “going to try very hard to explain this, but it is a bit hard to understand.” God is not a God of disorder, or confusion, so why do you take the position that he is, because this is what you are doing!!!!!

                                Please read your own words, “First one must realize Christ is fully God and fully human” wherein you quote someone else’s dogma that you bought into, but where is the Biblical support for this as he ones you used, simple do not work at all!!!!!

                                You then attempt to make an analogy of this by stating, “Just like I am fully part of my dad and part of my mom” and reply, that being “part” of something is not the same as being the something and further submit to you, that your analogy supports the opposite of what you assert, as I you may indeed be fully part of your mom and dad, (as you are both human creatures) but you are not the same person as you mom and dad period!!!!

                                You then express that “The exception come when we realize that Christ is not just spiritual human but also spiritually God, because His parents.” And I fully agree, and so do the Holy Scriptures, it is your making them (God and Jesus) the same person when they are not and clearly spoken of in scripture innumerable times as being separate!!!! These are facts!!!!

                                You then go onto discuss that Jesus is “only begotten”, of the Father, do you really know what you are saying as this very statement (ONLY-Begotten) clearly undermines what you are attempting to prove as God has never been begotten and Jesus has!!!!!!!!

                                Now here is something that at the very least should interest you. In John 1:18, the majority of Greek manuscripts for the NT (over one thousand) use the words in the Greek, that appropriately translates to “only begotten God” thus why the American Standard, and several others use these words at this scripture , with the minority of Greek manuscripts, into the few hundred using “only begotten son” yet the NIV and others translate this shockingly and misleadingly as “No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only,[a][b]who is at the Father's side, has made him known.” [For footnotes see www.biblegateway.com or the NIV itself] This verse does not even come close to any Greek NT manuscript, and clearly avoids rendering it this way, as this clearly establishes that Jesus had a beginning, as calling him “only begotten” whether God or Son, makes this point crystal clear or you would have to change definitions for these words in English and all languages to avoid it! You can easily prove this by getting a hold of a Jay P. Green/Hendrickson Hebrew and Greek Interlinear Bible.

                                Further regarding this same verse, I refer you to The Interlinear Greek-English New Testament by Alfred Marshall, published by Regency Reference Library, Zondervan Publishing House. In this Greek manuscript it uses, under the literal translation, “only begotten God” while in the English column to the left, translates it as “only begotten Son” (different words-God/Son) showing clear bias of interpretation, by not translating what the Greek inspired writer here, the Apostle John wrote!

                                Finally on this, I provide you here with a link for downloading a free online Hebrew and Greek manuscript at; http://www.scripture4all.org/, that also shows under the Greek a direct translation of “only generated God” (the word in Greek translated generated is also translated as only begotten), and yet in the English column, when translating this text it chooses to use “only begotten Son” also altering the text. Who is doing the covering up here in all this to make people believe in the lies you and others here believe in?

                                I agree with the reference you point me to at Strong’s, which serves contradict you, as it completely severs to support the above, that Jesus was created, the only begotten Son or God, but God the one who only begot Jesus was and has never been created!!!

                                Now here you jump subject matter again on being Born Again along with several other subject matters, that blend together discussing other spiritual matters that in the end, DOES NOT SUPPORT your position that Jesus is God as it is clear that Jesus created, had a beginning whereas God has not!!!!!

                                What I express above is without a doubt the FACT on this particular subject matter, and I submit that if you leave the plain and simple words of the Bible and make it subordinate (make second) to mans teachings, such dogma, creeds, theologies, exegesis and opinions you can make the Bible say anything you want, however you will NOT be able to support your beliefs in the simple and plain words of the Bible, by itself!!!!

                                Respectfully submitted,

                                TonyP

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