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I will answer you here AF. I was a Christian when I got married. As a Christian, I never had sex outside of marriage. I was not always a Christian however, and the answer to your question is no. Had I become a Christian as a child, I would like to think I would have done the right thing, but who knows. Those hormones and peer pressure and the barrage of sexual imagry in the media etc... may well have gotten the best of me. I had no direction or guidance from my parents in any of this unfortunately, and I was quite ignorant of what the Bible had to say. I was really talking theory in saying what would work best comparing it to what you had said. I don't yet see it as possible though given what I said about people in this world. Perhaps a combination of both perspectives might be practical and possible.
Thanks for an honest and vulnerable answer Xman, I appreciate it.
What I find distressful is that in upper middleclass circles, people seem to forget that a lot of women are exploited on a sexual level for reasons related to poverty and survival.
Unfortunately, the Christian Rightwing in the USA, and South Africa btw, seems to have little concern with uprooting poverty and empowering women as the first step towards drastically reducing abortion.
I am a dialectic materialist and consider a religious response to poverty and abortion as an exercise in the art of sticking your head in the sand.
That is why world capitalists like Abrahamsohn and Cheney support Rightwing Evangelicals, because the hubris they generate, distracts media attention from the real issues of rising poverty and inequality in the USA, and world wide.
Even if you could make the case for saving lives back in the 1940-1960's, we didn't have AIDS then.
Do you know that HALF OF ALL AIDS DEATHS in America are black women?
The sanctioning of abortion which increases the incidence of casual sex may actually be a contributing factor in the untimely and tragic deaths of the African American Woman.
Your back street argument is not valid on so many levels. Women die of clitorectomies too. Should we make those "legal."
According to the Alan Guttmacher Institute, article here black women are more than 3 times as likely as white women to have an abortion.
This incidence of abortion has resulted in a tremendous loss of life. It has been estimated that since 1973 Black women have had about 10 million abortions. Michael Novak had calculated "Since the number of current living Blacks (in the U.S.) is 31 million, the missing 10 million represents an enormous loss, for without abortion, America's Black community would now number 41 million persons. It would be 35 percent larger than it is. Abortion has swept through the Black community like a scythe, cutting down every fourth member."
On average, 1,452 black babies are aborted every day in the United States.
These statistics are sobering and horrible. And, yes there are socieo economic factors that play into this. But, at the end of the day, it's still a spiritual decision, taking life that God gives and nobody wins with abortion. Some countries (middle east, India) FORCE their women into abortions when it's not the sex they desire. It's murder and it's genocide.
So sanction abortion and women will LIVE LONGER. NOT TRUE!
The AIDS rate among Black women is 18 times as high as that among White women. Today Black women make up more than half of all women who have died of AIDS.
Again, this is horrible. The answer is not condoms, or legal/healthy abortions. My heart grieves for these women.
It's casual sex and that is the seed of death here. But, as abortion is "sanctioned by society, it is like an approved genocide. Someone should care about that.
But, African American Women are suffering, and abortion is not bringing them any healing ointment. '
Politicians have convinced these women to vote for them, that they are on "their side" but what they offer them as the "solution" to their troubles... to decrease their population and kill their babies, which is barbaric and demonic, and the only finger I'm pointing at right now are the politicians who glamorize this choice as a freedom.
I do have to say "thanks" for using this subthread. and while may disagree I appreciate debating both sides of this issue. I used to be a staunch pro-choice feminist. I still consider myself a "feminist" in some regards, but loaded up with truth now and not propaganda.
The feminism I grew up under as a very "modern" woman hurt women deeply in their soul. Now we have middle-aged women telling the truth about what it "cost" them in lost children, and lost intimacy.
I propose a new "feminism" of the day, not something from 1950, but not something from 1973 either!
Women are marvelous creatures and should never undergo sexual molestation, sexual slavery, rape, batter, murder by their husbands, murder by their husband when pregnant, or sexual harrasment from a boss, a pastor, a therapist. They should never have to lie on a table and lose their baby by choice.
ALL of the above hurt a woman's soul and crush their spirit DEEPLY.
The abortion issue was never my "soapbox." I have to say that I feel much differently about abortion personally than I did before I became a Christian. However, I have serious issues with using flashpoint issues like abortion, gay marriage, etc. in order to buy Christian votes in the name of "Christian values," where the strategy is to get a critical mass of people to agree on one or two commonly held issues so that they unwittingly back a larger, more controversial dominionist agenda that they otherwise may not go along with. By and large I wouldn't expect to enforce "Christian values" externally (see the failed experiment of alcohol prohibition in the US for a prime example) for to do so would be to establish a theocratic dictatorship. However, if one takes that out of the equation (assuming that were possible in the current political environment) I think there is a valid argument for laws regulating abortion in that one can say that it can and does cause harm and certainly preventing harm for the good of society is the reason why there are laws. Despite what I feel personally about abortion though, this is such a touchy and complex issue mainly because of the theocratic angle and also because I believe that the Holy Spirit convicts of sin, not a theocratic government, so this is the reason why I don't publicly demonstrate on this issue despite my personal convictions, though I also don't criticise those who believe they are called to do so assuming it's not part of a hidden "dominionist" agenda.
HOWEVER, I am currently dealing with a situation where a teenage (minor) girl was apparently coerced by one parent to have an abortion against her will. I know "forced abortions" are not legally allowable but I'm not talking about the law per se but coercion which certainly *we* here know something about. The girl feels like a murderer even though this wasn't what she really wanted. She was near the end of the first trimester when she aborted and had already named the child, knew the sex, etc. She saw the remains and everything. She grieves for this child... yes, she was young, not ready for parenthood, but which was worse? The baby's father was also still very much in the picture (so no, he didn't ditch, not by a long shot) and was coerced to go along with the decision... they were both told that the girl's Christian father would go ballistic if he found out the girl was pregnant and would have nothing to do with them which is far from the case. The mother was extremely angry when the girl finally told her dad a couple months later. He would not have wanted the girl to have an abortion but certainly would have dealt with the situation in love (so wouldn't ostracise the girl nor her child but would have supported and LOVED both).
BTW, as a result the mother almost got arrested for child neglect as a result of all this (there was NO supervision which IMHO is a huge part of the reason why the girl and her boyfriend got in this situation to begin with) and the girl is now living with her dad. While her Christian dad does not agree with abortion he loves his daughter and despite what she was told about him does not judge her or love her any less for what happened. Actually this whole situation is resulting in a renewed relationship between this girl and her dad, who had been estranged for the better part of 2 years (in large part because of YEARS of the mom playing the girl off against her dad).
BTW, apparently a study conducted several years ago showed that mothers of pregnant children who give "consent" to these abortions and don't notify their fathers is not an uncommon occurrance.
Am I going to judge or preach? No. All I can do is love and through love try to bring healing and comfort to the girl in this situation.
I agree with you when you wrote: where the strategy is to get a critical mass of people to agree on one or two commonly held issues so that they unwittingly back a larger, more controversial dominionist agenda
The trap set here is that most Christians are pro-life, and they don't want to question a group that holds this up as part of their banner. But we have to look beyond that. The other issue this group touts in homosexuality. I heard one prayer on saturday use the words HOMOS. It was inflammatory, unkind, unloving, and certainly not of a Christian spirit.
I am concerned that the way in which any group that touts PURITY instead of JESUS as this actually weakens the faith, and keeps the lost at more than arms length. Purity doesn't save. Our salvation comes through what JESUS DID that we couldn't do.
Now the actual purpose for The Call as they report, was to cleanse the church of immorality, and, thus to behold a pure and spotless BRIDE so that Christ will return. In other words, it doesn't matter what is happening with the lost, but that the CHURCH is made pure and spotless, which was also something Jane Leade wrote about } here.
24. Until there be such a church made ready upon the earth, so holy, so catholic, and so anointed, that is without all spot or wrinkle, and that is adorned as a bride to meet her bridegroom, CHRIST will not personally descend to solemnize this marriage, and present the same to his Father.
25. But when the bridal church shall be made ready, and thoroughly cleansed and sanctified from every spot of defilement through the blood of CHRIST, then he will no longer delay his coming in person.
If this is true, then Jesus is not our Savior. We are our own savior.
Oh come on AF, you are justifying abortion because there has been no implementation of your socialist utopia? One problem with your theory friend is that the socialist/communists or societies who redistribute wealth are the biggest promoters of abortion out there historically. So be honest AF even if there was a redistribution of wealth like you want you would still promote abortion as a question of freedom and individual choice. I do remember what you wrote AF, you said that abortion was o.k up to the first trimester. About the only way to get AF to think twice would be to show him how rich the abortionist "doctors" are by promoting the freedom of death choice thing. Then AF might in the name of socialist justice oppose abortion but I doubt it.
AF why are so many married African men in South Africa closet homosexuals? That must be the reason why Aids has infected so many African women, how else would they get the disease? You should work with Philip Rosenthal and promote a more Godly life style for society, you have to be honest your philosophy is causing half your country to have aids and it promotes massive abortion. That is not very Christian but it is hedonist socialist French philosophy.