NTCC Financial disclosure!!

[chris fears]

Forgive me if this is off topic, but I noticed that threads tend to get buried. I would like to start this one up again or somehow get it on the first page where anyone can se it and find it easily. (If anyone knows how please feel free)
It is obvious that the financial goings on from the top of this organization all the way to the way the local churches are mishandled. Is there any legal recourse? What can be done to force them to give all of that "escrow" back to the local churches? Can it be proven the money was even there?

[D. Gilder]

Chris,

Thanks for reviving this post.

It sounds like you have a lot of insite to the financial dealings of
the org.

Would you please explain to the thread readers exactly how the
top mishandles and misappropriates funds? Or what they deem to
be correct dealings, and what you know are not?

People with real and informative insite are the ones that make fn
worth while.

Thank you in advanced for the detailed info.

DG.

[chief]

How about taking up a pledge offering which incidentally is a way to psychologically manipulate folks into committing their money so that you can lay a guilt trip over them when they don’t pay up. Then because they want to have a clean conscience toward God they pay up even if they really can’t afford it. Of course if the NTCC had not termed it a “Pledge” they would not have any grounds to guilt trip members into committing more money. Then the NTCC attempts to hold them to their commitment even after they have left the church. I know of a specific church member that told a pastor that he was leaving and the pastor reminded him of a pledge that he had made.

But to answer your original question; how about taking up a “pledge” for a specific world mission location that does not come to pass. Then consequently the money is never returned to the givers but redirected by the NTCC to serve their own purposes but not the specific purpose that the pledge was originally taken up for. Don’t ask for names D.G. because until you reveal your name I have no intention to reveal my “credible” source and in fact two different sources that would have direct knowledge of this specific infraction. It is called misappropriation of funds or taking up a pledge and KEEPING it under false pretense without permission from the ones that gave the money or from the Pastor that lead the group of givers. I probably wouldn’t reveal their names anyway so don’t feel compelled to reveal yours despite the fact that I don’t expect that you would.

[ctyankee]

How about the practice of emptying escrow accounts when a pastor is changed. If you need proof, then read Rickards and Bellman's accounts of the escrow accounts in the old factnet. The local pastors set up escrow funds which they are led to believe is money to be used for the local church. The church members give offerings which get put in these accounts, with the belief that the money will be used for THEIR local church. And the local pastor is NOT allowed to be a co-signer on the account-- only people back at HQ. BUT, as soon as the pastor is moved, either to Graham or elsewhere, the escrow fund is removed by the leaders in Graham, and the new pastor has to to start all over with nothing. Bellman stated that he had around $40,000 in his escrow that will be removed before the new pastor takes over. This practice is stealing and lying. Stealing, because it is suppose to be for the local churches, and lying, because the pastor and church members are deceived as to it's real purpose. I strongly believe that that is why pastors are moved around so often-- so the coffers can be emptied and transfered back to Graham. We were always taught to avoid the very appearance of evil. Well it appears evil when the little money the struggling churches have is confiscated, while the leaders live like millionaires.

James 5:1+4: "Go to now, ye rich men, weep and howl for your miseries that shall come upon you..... behold the hire of the laborers who have reaped down your fields, which is of you kept back by FRAUD, crieth: and the cries of them which have reaped are entered into the ears of the Lord of Sabaoth."

[exhopper12712]

And everybody said Amen

[chief]

And everybody said Amen

Amen. That was a good message Ctyankee.

[D. Gilder]

Thanks for the insite, althought I thought Chris Fears was the one
who had the knowledge.

Very insiteful.

As was told to me, the money stays in the town, but the ledger goes to
zero with the pastoral change.

When the money goes into the escrow, it belongs to the church and not the members.

ctyankee, have you heard it this way also?

Thanks, DG.

[chief]

Thanks for the insite, althought I thought Chris Fears was the one who had the knowledge.

Very insiteful.

As was told to me, the money stays in the town, but the ledger goes to
zero with the pastoral change.

When the money goes into the escrow, it belongs to the church and not the members.

ctyankee, have you heard it this way also?

Thanks, DG.

I don't see what difference it makes who had the knowledge. Unless of course you simply wanted to put Chris on the spot or maybe something personal with Chris because he made an allegation that you feel he should substantiate? I gave an answer concerning misappropriation of funds. What about a pledge that was taken and not used for the specified purpose? You write as though you are or have been a leader D.G.

I understand the NTCC leadership wants to protect themselves against potentially renegade Pastors taking money, but where is the protection that the local churchs/Pastors have against the NTCC Leadership taking and or misusing money? There is none. It once again is a double standard. Oh I see; it is the concept of "you must trust us but we don't trust you". Well after my experience with the NTCC I trust folks less than I did and after NTCC experience with the HOP they obviously don’t trust their own ministers. Well RWD unwisely put Dennis in his position.

Many people trust their own family which is one of the main reasons that certain ministers who are family members are in Washington and will stay there and I don’t think that I need to name names. We all know of them. Sadam Hussein trusted his family more so than others, which is why a good number of his cabinet members were family.
The same sentiment exists in the NTCC and it is obvious.

[ctyankee]

How can the money stay in the town if the ledger is at zero? I know that Bellman and Rickards were very upset that the money was not going to be going to the churches they worked so hard to build. Rickards stated that he had about $30,000 in his account, and when he asked to buy a much needed piano for $2,500, he was told no. I don't understand this. If a pastor has enough on the ball to save that much money, why can't it be used for a legitament purpose? (And Rickards was successful in every church he built, and left money at every church he pastored). Vic Johansen had $10,000 in his Alaska escrow, but when Doug Allen took over it was gone. Vic questioned Davis about it and Davis didn't want to answer the question, because he took it. It's very obvious, once you start talking to former pastors, that NTCC has alot of shady financial dealings going on. (Plus the "cash only", no paper trail policy they've had for the last 20 years). I don't know if you've been to Graham in the last couple of years, but it is evident that the Davis family is raking in a ton of money for their own personal use. As one man aptly put it, NTCC is a church pyramid scheme. It sounds like you were probably a pastor, so what do you think?

[D. Gilder]

I am not a leader.

Please don't be a conspiracist cheif. I think you're more intelligent than that.

To him that is pure all things are pure.

Please accept that as my motive.

DG.

[D. Gilder]

ctyankee,

Thanks for the followup.

I wonder what happened to the 50 - some thousand that Doug received in
Florida as stated on an earlier post.

Also, I understand that the "written" ledger goes to zero in the church, but the finances, be them 10, 20 thousand or whatever, stays in the town, in the bank, but the receipts and financial statements of the escrow go to Graham.

Can you expound further ct?

[chief]

I am not a leader.

Please don't be a conspiracist cheif. I think you're more intelligent than that.

To him that is pure all things are pure.

Please accept that as my motive.

DG.

I am not a big fan of conspiracy theorist either. You do write/speak as one with authority. I am not patronizing you either and hopefully you were not patronizing me when you spoke of my intelligence. Once again you spoke as one with authority when you made that statement as though you know me when you have already stated that you don't, i.e. we have never met. Or you feel that you know me/my character based on my writing style.

[chief]

I am not a leader.

Please don't be a conspiracist cheif. I think you're more intelligent than that.

DG.

The statement, "I think you're more intelligent than that", would only be made by someone that would consider themselves an authority figure, or desire to be considered an authority on other folks character. To write a statement like that would imply that your assessment should be deemed a credible one, by those reading factnet. This once again would lead someone such as myself to believe you are a leader or have previously served in some sort of leadership capacity at some time in your life. You do write like such an individual whether you are or ever have served in a position of authority.

No offense intended; just an observation.

[D. Gilder]

You are correct.

When I was in basic training, I was appointed sqad leader until I failed
to execute police call because I was unfamiliar w/ the terminology.

[chief]

You are correct.

When I was in basic training, I was appointed sqad leader until I failed
to execute police call because I was unfamiliar w/ the terminology.

See I knew that you were in a leadership position. Just a little humor.

[victorjohanson]

Yes, there was about $10K in the Fairbanks building fund when I left; it was never used and the org closed the work about a year or less after we left. A few years later, Doug came up here again, and I asked RW in the presence of the board whether that money would be restored to the church there and he said "when the time is right" it would be. But Doug never even heard of this money, and he was here for 7 or 8 years, I think.

I also continued to pay on a monthly pledge I made to Panama; lo and behold, my wife ran into Linda and Jesus Rodrigues, who had been missionaries down there, in the grocery store and learned that the work had be shut down about six months prior. I wrote a letter to RW and he called me with a smoke and mirrors explanation that the money was being "escrowed" (must be their favorite term over there) until such time as it would be reopened. Even if that were true (which I doubt), it is unethical to continue to take money on a closed work without even notifying the donors of its status. And we've also learned from missionaries that they received a starvation stipend, even though hundreds of people made monthly pledges.

An ethical group would voluntarily post financial data for all to see; why doesn't NTCC? Every church I've been involved with post-org gave issued periodic financial statements to all the membership without even being asked. They weren't trying to hide anything.

[victorjohanson]

I've copied this down the page to where the main threads are.