the trinity

[truth_child]

no you explain how three were at the baptisim if there are only ONE of THEM AND when i say this i am talking about the trinity

[turtle]

Tony P

Answer is under your question.

[turtle]

Dear Turtle:

Thank you for your reply, however, now I can see how truly confused you are as will be demonstrated below.

Now, I note, you did not address the matter of my post on point, but instead chose to take me into another direction and while that is OK, it DOES NOT ADDRESS THE MATTER OF MY POST; I specifically brought up that if you were using scriptures at John 14, to support the Trinity, verse 20 of that same chapter makes clear that it does not.

Now let us turn to one of my favorite discussions and I will do my best to keep it simple for you!!!!! Here you take me to John 1:1-3 KJV.

I must ask you, with regards to John 1:1-3 have you ever done the research yourself personally, by going to a library and looking at a Greek text or have you done what most people do, especially on this board, and that is, take the word of someone else and make it your own?

First and foremost, at first glance and at best, these verses, (especially verse 1) if taken the way you want them to read, or as expressed here above, would mean that God and Jesus are the same person-being, or spirit creature, however, this verse does NOT support a Trinity as one needs three to support this and not two, as it does here! Second, if this were the only manner, this verse was rendered in all Bibles, then you again, would have at best, a duality, duo-ity, but not a Trinity.

Now, please take a note of the following English Bibles and how they translate John 1:1 or 1-3. Also take note that this is taken from the following WebPages in order for you to verify and validate this for yourself;

http://www.tyndale.cam.ac.uk/Scriptures/index.htm

http://www.tyndale.cam.ac.uk/Scriptu...mpare/name.htm

1. (IV) Authorized Version by Joseph Smith (1867)

“In the beginning was the gospel preached through the Son. And the gospel was the word, and the word was with the Son, and the Son was with God, and the Son was of God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not anything made which was made.”

2. (MNT) Moffatt New Translation (1922) George H. Doran Company (1922)[Tyndale House, Cambridge, United Kingdom] “The Logos existed in the very beginning, the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine.”

3. (NEB) New English Bible. (1970) “When all things began, the Word already was. The Word dwelt with God, and what God was, the Word was.”

4. (SGAT) An American Translation, Smith-Goodspeed (1931) University of Chicago Press (1931), “In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine. It was he that was with God in the beginning. Everything came into existence through him, and apart from him nothing came to be.”

5. (WET) Wuest Expanded Translation (1961) Eerdmans (1961)
“In the beginning the Word was existing. And the Word was in fellowship with God the Father. And the Word was as to His essence absolute deity. This Word was in the beginning in fellowship with God the Father. All things through His intermediate agency came into being, and without Him there came into being not even one thing which has come into existence.”

6. The Authentic New Testament (1958) New American Library (1958) [Tyndale House, Cambridge, United Kingdom] “In the beginning was the Word. And the Word was with God. So the Word was divine.”

7. (BNT) Barclay New Testament (1969). "Collins (vol. 1 in 1968; vol. 2 in 1969)[Tyndale House, Cambridge, United Kingdom] “When the world began, the Word was already there. The Word was with God, and the nature of the Word was the same as the nature of God.”

8. (CNT) Cassier New Testament (1989) William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company (1989) [Tyndale House, Cambridge, United Kingdom] “It was the Word that was at the very beginning; and the Word was by the side of God, and the Word was the very same as God.”

9. (ISV) International Standard (1998) Davidson Press (1998)[Tyndale House, Cambridge, United Kingdom] “In the beginning, the Word existed. The Word was with God. Through him all things were made, and apart from him nothing was made that has been made”

10. (ONT) The Original New Testament (1985) Harper and Row (1985)[Tyndale House, Cambridge, United Kingdom] “'In the Beginning was the Word. And the Word was with God. So the Word was divine.”

11. The Orthodox Jewish Brit Chadasha (1997) AFI International Publishers (1997) [Tyndale House, Cambridge, United Kingdom] “Bereshis (In the Beginning) was the Dvar Hashem [YESHAYAH 55: 11; BERE**** 1:1], and the Dvar Hashem was agav (along with) Hashem [MISHLE 8:30; 30:4], and the Dvar Hashem was nothing less, by nature, than Elohim!”

12. (PRNT) The Restored New Testament 1914 John M. Pryse / John M. Watkins (1925) [Tyndale House, Cambridge, United Kingdom] “The divine Thought inhered in the primordial Element, And proximate to the Unmanifested God was this divine Thought; And verily the divine Thought was the secondary God”

13. (REB) Revised English Bible (1989) Oxford and Cambridge Universities Presses (1989) [Tyndale House, Cambridge, United Kingdom] “In the beginning the Word already was. The Word was in God's presence, and what God was, the Word was.”

14. (SV) Scholars Version (The Five Gospels) (1993) Macmillan (1993)[Tyndale House, Cambridge, United Kingdom] “In the beginning there was the divine word and wisdom. The divine word and wisdom was there with God, and it was what God was.”

15. (TEV) Today’s English Version (1976) [The Good News Bible] (@) United Bible Societies (1976) [Tyndale House, Cambridge, United Kingdom] “Before the world was created, the Word already existed; he was with God, and he was the same as God.”

16. (UNT) The Unvarnished New Testament (1991) Phanes Press (1991) [Tyndale House, Cambridge, United Kingdom] “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was toward God, and God was what the Word was.”

End of English Bible references.

Now, to be fair, there are many more English translations on this same web page, and elsewhere, that translate these verses similar or identical to the one you used, however, it goes to clearly establish that this is NOT a matter that is simply cut and dry, as at first glance!!!!!

In fact, reading these varying differences in translation from English Bible’s from around the world, should at the very least, raise legitimate issues and concern, that there must be something in the original Greek text that causes this to be so, as the reading of it one way, tells you that Jesus is God, while a reading of it in other ways shows that Jesus is NOT but rather instead, of the same form or substance of God but is NOT God. (NOTE: When I say form or substance, you would not argue if I said your child was like you, human, or humankind, and so with Jesus who is like God, in that he is a spirit or spirit creature just as God and the angels are).

Now let us get into this with greater detail. First note, that in the Greek/English, this would read, something like the following below;

In the Greek, (spelling somewhat phonetically in English) this scripture reads… “In the beginning was The (Ho) Word (Logos), and The (Ho) Word (Logos) was with God (Ton Theon), and The (Ho) Word (Logos) was God (Theos).” Please note the distinction between the first mention of God that in Greek it is “Ton Theon”, verses the second mention of God, as “Theos”, without the “Ton” before it. (More on this below) In Greek there are several words that translate into the English word “the” and “O” (pronounced HO) and “TOV” (pronounced TON) are two of them!

It is interesting to note that many so-called Christian translators take the liberty to omit the Greek word, Tov, making like it does not exist, usually by putting a – (dash) under it in English, like it doesn’t mean anything, but it is a real word in the Greek. In Greek this TOV (not a dash) is another word for our English word “The” like Ho is also The. And by keeping it blank, rendering it meaningless, serves to confuse, God (Theos) with God (Ton Theon), with theos and theon being subjugated words for God in Greek, though which are distinguished by the Greek word “Tov”, for “the” in English; in other words, there is a difference between “God” and “The God”.

Now that you have this information before you, why don’t you do some real research and do some soul searching to understand why this is so, but again, like in John 14, what you refer me to, DOES not support a Trinity!!!!!

TonyP

You love to frustrate don't you. Now actually I am not frustrated.

John 14:20 KJV
(20) At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

I think I explained this quite will in my last post concerning the question. God spirit indwells us with ur spirit. In other words our spirit does not become God but He sups with us or indwells us.

Ephesians 3:17-19 KJV
(17) That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,
(18) May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height;
(19) And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.

In order for Him to indwell we must remember who is indwelling.

John 14:26 KJV
(26) But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Now why do pentecostals before you even ask it say one must be baptized. One needs to be aware of who the Holy Spirit is beyond the fact He in dwells and teaches us. Only way to get that is though experience. Now hold on. Something most do not realize on the day of Pentecost they received what boldness to speak. How many people get saved, and lack boldness. Quite to many. Why is that. Why is there all of a sudden no strength to the fire. Simple they know little about the Holy Spirit. HOly Spirit is seldom taught in some groups. many do not know they have power in Jesus Name, or that if we ask we will receive, yet make sure that is in context to other scripture before naming and claiming.

Do we not in general use the term ghost or spirit meaning the same. But using the word Holy makes it God not just any spirit or ghost.

[truth_child]

tto the one who said end of english trans... i see you did not mention the kjv at all

[praetorian]

Dear Turtle:

For the second part of your Post:

You mention you are “going to try very hard to explain this, but it is a bit hard to understand.” God is not a God of disorder, or confusion, so why do you take the position that he is, because this is what you are doing!!!!!

Please read your own words, “First one must realize Christ is fully God and fully human” wherein you quote someone else’s dogma that you bought into, but where is the Biblical support for this as he ones you used, simple do not work at all!!!!!

You then attempt to make an analogy of this by stating, “Just like I am fully part of my dad and part of my mom” and reply, that being “part” of something is not the same as being the something and further submit to you, that your analogy supports the opposite of what you assert, as I you may indeed be fully part of your mom and dad, (as you are both human creatures) but you are not the same person as you mom and dad period!!!!

You then express that “The exception come when we realize that Christ is not just spiritual human but also spiritually God, because His parents.” And I fully agree, and so do the Holy Scriptures, it is your making them (God and Jesus) the same person when they are not and clearly spoken of in scripture innumerable times as being separate!!!! These are facts!!!!

You then go onto discuss that Jesus is “only begotten”, of the Father, do you really know what you are saying as this very statement (ONLY-Begotten) clearly undermines what you are attempting to prove as God has never been begotten and Jesus has!!!!!!!!

Now here is something that at the very least should interest you. In John 1:18, the majority of Greek manuscripts for the NT (over one thousand) use the words in the Greek, that appropriately translates to “only begotten God” thus why the American Standard, and several others use these words at this scripture , with the minority of Greek manuscripts, into the few hundred using “only begotten son” yet the NIV and others translate this shockingly and misleadingly as “No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only,[a][b]who is at the Father's side, has made him known.” [For footnotes see www.biblegateway.com or the NIV itself] This verse does not even come close to any Greek NT manuscript, and clearly avoids rendering it this way, as this clearly establishes that Jesus had a beginning, as calling him “only begotten” whether God or Son, makes this point crystal clear or you would have to change definitions for these words in English and all languages to avoid it! You can easily prove this by getting a hold of a Jay P. Green/Hendrickson Hebrew and Greek Interlinear Bible.

Further regarding this same verse, I refer you to The Interlinear Greek-English New Testament by Alfred Marshall, published by Regency Reference Library, Zondervan Publishing House. In this Greek manuscript it uses, under the literal translation, “only begotten God” while in the English column to the left, translates it as “only begotten Son” (different words-God/Son) showing clear bias of interpretation, by not translating what the Greek inspired writer here, the Apostle John wrote!

Finally on this, I provide you here with a link for downloading a free online Hebrew and Greek manuscript at; http://www.scripture4all.org/, that also shows under the Greek a direct translation of “only generated God” (the word in Greek translated generated is also translated as only begotten), and yet in the English column, when translating this text it chooses to use “only begotten Son” also altering the text. Who is doing the covering up here in all this to make people believe in the lies you and others here believe in?

I agree with the reference you point me to at Strong’s, which serves contradict you, as it completely severs to support the above, that Jesus was created, the only begotten Son or God, but God the one who only begot Jesus was and has never been created!!!

Now here you jump subject matter again on being Born Again along with several other subject matters, that blend together discussing other spiritual matters that in the end, DOES NOT SUPPORT your position that Jesus is God as it is clear that Jesus created, had a beginning whereas God has not!!!!!

What I express above is without a doubt the FACT on this particular subject matter, and I submit that if you leave the plain and simple words of the Bible and make it subordinate (make second) to mans teachings, such dogma, creeds, theologies, exegesis and opinions you can make the Bible say anything you want, however you will NOT be able to support your beliefs in the simple and plain words of the Bible, by itself!!!!

Respectfully submitted,

TonyP

[praetorian]

tto the one who said end of english trans... i see you did not mention the kjv at all

TC:

That is the POINT!!!!! You make decisions based on your “feelings” to use only one Bible! Now, if other Bible's state something different, where do you go, TC to get the matter or truth explained to you!!!!!!

If you hang your hat on a translation, (or version which is NOT a translation of the original Greek and Hebrew) and ignore the others, you, have made a choice to be ignorant, and thus your decisions or beliefs, sad to say are ignorant as well!!!!!

If there was ONLY ONE WAY to express John 1:1, we would not be having this discussion and other Bible’s would not be different, but they don’t agree, why?????? If all Bibles agreed with the KJV (Get it a VERSION NOT A TRANSLATION) then you would have something to support you, but in the end, the POINT remains, that the actual Bible Texts are often manipulated BEFORE you get your Bible to support teachings that are not clearly expressed in the Greek and Hebrew, and fortunately for you and I, all of us, we have these manuscripts to do our own research!!!!!

If you love your God and your life, check this out for yourself or you can never say you have NOT been deceived, as you truly do not know!!!

In the end, you nor I are qualified scholars to pick and choose and take the position as to who is wrong or right, with Bibles, that is why I presented the information above for you to personally investigate it, and not take my word, nor anyone else's word on matters, that pertain to your everlasting well being!!!!

TonyP

[truth_child]

any one with sense can see that there are THREE in the trinity. three PERSONS AND NOT THREE OFFICES AND NOT THREE GODS EITHR

[turtle]

Dear Turtle:

What I express above is without a doubt the FACT on this particular subject matter, and I submit that if you leave the plain and simple words of the Bible and make it subordinate (make second) to mans teachings, such dogma, creeds, theologies, exegesis and opinions you can make the Bible say anything you want, however you will NOT be able to support your beliefs in the simple and plain words of the Bible, by itself!!!!

Respectfully submitted,

TonyP

Actually I find your last statement humorous. Simple fact you can just use scripture but people seem to want more these days of understanding the background of something. Fact is I have just read the Bible without references. so as many scholars and educators before me. Many without the knowledge or text beyond a Bible. Many have gotten saved in Hotel rooms by just reading the Bible. You put only the Bible in the hands of people who do not have one and they need no other text. True it might take a little longer to come to the same conclusions, but by the Holy Spirit it will be revealed who He is.

If an eight year old or younger can get saved by just reading and no other knowledge but the rememberance of scripture anyone can. But to do indepth study like is discussed on this board it takes tools that often regular folks don't have access to, except for now with the internet.

It hard for people to deny that when they read they ask questions and they go searching for answers. They need sources in which to hunt things on that are accurate. The more accurate we get the better the knowledge of the Bible is for just the average reader, but even without tools for thousands of years God as changed lives when one reads scripture.

Look up Hulda the prophetess. She sat and explain scripture. By just using scripture. Actual Tony you could of gone to my site and looked under love lessons and it is on the gospel of John. They got tied into the Holy Spirit study. So you need to read it to get chapters 14-16

[praetorian]

You love to frustrate don't you. Now actually I am not frustrated.

John 14:20 KJV
(20) At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

I think I explained this quite will in my last post concerning the question. God spirit indwells us with ur spirit. In other words our spirit does not become God but He sups with us or indwells us.

Ephesians 3:17-19 KJV
(17) That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,
(18) May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height;
(19) And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.

In order for Him to indwell we must remember who is indwelling.

John 14:26 KJV
(26) But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Now why do pentecostals before you even ask it say one must be baptized. One needs to be aware of who the Holy Spirit is beyond the fact He in dwells and teaches us. Only way to get that is though experience. Now hold on. Something most do not realize on the day of Pentecost they received what boldness to speak. How many people get saved, and lack boldness. Quite to many. Why is that. Why is there all of a sudden no strength to the fire. Simple they know little about the Holy Spirit. HOly Spirit is seldom taught in some groups. many do not know they have power in Jesus Name, or that if we ask we will receive, yet make sure that is in context to other scripture before naming and claiming.

Do we not in general use the term ghost or spirit meaning the same. But using the word Holy makes it God not just any spirit or ghost.

Dear Turtle:

You completely ignored my post. Double Wow. I don’t love to frustrate anything, but I do not dodge the issue as you clearly do! It is you that mentioned “frustration” not I. My posts above stand on their own merit, and are indelibly available for anyone to read side by side or one after the other with yours and others on this site!

You don’t frustrate me either, you are rather assuming! It is you that in your words deny being frustrated!!! LOL

As to John 14:20, how can you miss this point; Jesus clearly tells his disciples, that “I am in the Father” and also, that they, his disciples, (please read this carefully and slowly) “ye are in me” meaning in plain and simple English that Jesus disciples are in him-Jesus, and Jesus is in his Disciples, but that does not mean that his disciples and Jesus are the same PERSON!!!!

Your not using your mind, or you don’t speak English, but that is not what the plain and simple express (that they are the same person). Please, note that in order to establish what Jesus meant previously about him being in his father and visa-versa, I pointed out that you conveniently left out verse 20, showing what Jesus meant by those words, and that it does not support that they are the same spirit creature!!!! Come one!! LOL, I submit to you that anyone with an 8th grade education in English can see and readily understand this!!!!

And no, you did not explain this in your previous post, you even ignored verse 20, that is why I pointed it out to you in the first place!!!! The remainder of your post has nothing to do with supporting your false pagan based belief that Jesus is God!!!

Now here you leave the subject matter further, in order to go onto to discuss Pentecostal Doctrines, note, again, that besides changing the subject matter, it is critical to note that among the Pentecostals, there are many groups that conflict between and among themselves, so why you do this, is beyond me as it has nothing to do with what we discuss here, in this string!!!!!

As to being Baptized as expressed by Jesus in Matthew 28:18, 19, you should quote that within the context, as it clearly states, that we as followers of Christ must preach and make disciples which is then evidenced by their getting Baptized, and so again, this does not mean or prove that God is a Trinity either! It does not state that at all!!!!!!! It is no different than if I express to you, “Stop in the name of the Law, or I’ll shoot”, it is representative of authority!!!!

I am fully aware of what the Bible truly teaches about the Holy Sprit and given your responses, you are very much confused!!!!

TonyP

[praetorian]

any one with sense can see that there are THREE in the trinity. three PERSONS AND NOT THREE OFFICES AND NOT THREE GODS EITHR

There is nothing more to say about this. However, I must state that even enemies recognize when someone brings something to their attention that they did not previously know, I and know, that you did not remotely have in your mind, (same with Turtle) the things I bring up on this board regarding John 1:1, and Christ being the only begotten God/Son!

You are using your feelings to respond, I have used the Bible!!!! That is the difference between us and always will be!!!

TonyP

[praetorian]

Actually I find your last statement humorous. Simple fact you can just use scripture but people seem to want more these days of understanding the background of something. Fact is I have just read the Bible without references. so as many scholars and educators before me. Many without the knowledge or text beyond a Bible. Many have gotten saved in Hotel rooms by just reading the Bible. You put only the Bible in the hands of people who do not have one and they need no other text. True it might take a little longer to come to the same conclusions, but by the Holy Spirit it will be revealed who He is.

If an eight year old or younger can get saved by just reading and no other knowledge but the rememberance of scripture anyone can. But to do indepth study like is discussed on this board it takes tools that often regular folks don't have access to, except for now with the internet.

It hard for people to deny that when they read they ask questions and they go searching for answers. They need sources in which to hunt things on that are accurate. The more accurate we get the better the knowledge of the Bible is for just the average reader, but even without tools for thousands of years God as changed lives when one reads scripture.

Look up Hulda the prophetess. She sat and explain scripture. By just using scripture. Actual Tony you could of gone to my site and looked under love lessons and it is on the gospel of John. They got tied into the Holy Spirit study. So you need to read it to get chapters 14-16

Dear Turtle:

What a coincidence! Now, which one’s humor makes them more Biblical?

As to being saved, why would Jesus state what he did in Matthew 24:13, if it is as you “feel?” Wow, I have dogma, dogma for sale cheap too!!!!

As to the spirit or Holy Sprit, 1 John 4:1, makes clear the acid test, for those claiming to be led by the Holy Spirit to find out which one is truly from God, not feelings!!!!

My Dearest Turtle, if you want a reply from me on the Holy Spirit, start by providing me with the replies to my post, first as ignoring them, is not only discourteous, but unchristian; so what you are you afraid of?

The study of the Bible, is absolutely necessary, as 2 Timothy 3:16 and 17, shows in order to correct wrong, bad teachings, not feelings of yours or mine!!! God’s word is easy for people of all backgrounds to understand, it is people who believe in the garbage you do, that makes it complicated, forcing one to accept one’s word for things rather than God’s own words!!!!

I did this research myself, over 30 years ago, at libraries, and bought books, etc. before there was an internet, so there is no excuse for one who is humble enough to accept what the Bible really teaches over man’s or woman’s opinions!!!

Now you make a very valuable point, that makes sense, “It hard for people to deny that when they read they ask questions and they go searching for answers. They need sources in which to hunt things on that are accurate. The more accurate we get the better the knowledge of the Bible is for just the average reader, but even without tools for thousands of years God as changed lives when one reads scripture” and I submit to you that if you take the time to do the research, you will find that what the Bible teaches, often conflicts with what is taught in Christendom that people everywhere for years have taken for granted!!!!

I do not use other people’s thoughts or exegesis to tell me what is plainly and simply stated in the Bible, by my God and Father or I might become a follower of Hulda etc! This is exactly what the Bible warns against!!!!

Sadly, the end of your post does not make sense, though I understand it is your opinion!!!!

God’s love does indeed encompass us all, however, we know about him, his love
and his Son, from the Bible, that I submit to you, is NOT what you and many others believe, as you go to other outside sources for this information as though God’s word is not complete, or is so poorly written that he needs humans to help him explain what He had inspired others to write for our benefit!!!! This makes no sense!!!!

Come on! This may be the God you and others on this Board worship, but it is NOT the God I worship. I worship the God of the Bible, through his illustrious Son, our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Tony?

[praetorian]

Answer is under your question.

Here is my response to what you refer to as a reply:

Daniel 5:27!

TonyP

[turtle]

Here is my response to what you refer to as a reply:

Daniel 5:27!

TonyP

May defense I am still learning and prone to error, but I like to know what error I did.

[praetorian]

May defense I am still learning and prone to error, but I like to know what error I did.

Please take the time to read the exchanges carefully, one at a time, before firing off, rapid fire, replies and you will catch it!

In the end, the posts were provided in order to reason with some here, and provide food for thought, about what they believe verses, what the Bible really teaches, on it's own, without the aid of any man or women (human) telling us what it means after God inspired it’s writing!

In effect, the Bible interprets itself! What else would you expect from a book from our Wonderful, omniscient Heavenly Father and God, who is also the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, as so simply and plainly stated at, 2 Corinthians 1:3, 2 Corinthians 11:31, Ephesians 1:3, and 1 Peter 1:3!

Cheers!

TonyP

[praetorian]

Please take the time to read the exchanges carefully, one at a time, before firing off, rapid fire, replies and you will catch it!

In the end, the posts were provided in order to reason with some here, and provide food for thought, about what they believe verses, what the Bible really teaches, on it's own, without the aid of any man or women (human) telling us what it means after God inspired it’s writing!

In effect, the Bible interprets itself! What else would you expect from a book from our Wonderful, omniscient Heavenly Father and God, who is also the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, as so simply and plainly stated at, 2 Corinthians 1:3, 2 Corinthians 11:31, Ephesians 1:3, and 1 Peter 1:3!

Cheers!

TonyP

Note: All of these scriptures were inspired by God, after Jesus returned to Heaven!!!

[turtle]

Dear Turtle:

What a coincidence! Now, which one’s humor makes them more Biblical?

As to being saved, why would Jesus state what he did in Matthew 24:13, if it is as you “feel?” Wow, I have dogma, dogma for sale cheap too!!!!

As to the spirit or Holy Sprit, 1 John 4:1, makes clear the acid test, for those claiming to be led by the Holy Spirit to find out which one is truly from God, not feelings!!!!

My Dearest Turtle, if you want a reply from me on the Holy Spirit, start by providing me with the replies to my post, first as ignoring them, is not only discourteous, but unchristian; so what you are you afraid of?

The study of the Bible, is absolutely necessary, as 2 Timothy 3:16 and 17, shows in order to correct wrong, bad teachings, not feelings of yours or mine!!! God’s word is easy for people of all backgrounds to understand, it is people who believe in the garbage you do, that makes it complicated, forcing one to accept one’s word for things rather than God’s own words!!!!

I did this research myself, over 30 years ago, at libraries, and bought books, etc. before there was an internet, so there is no excuse for one who is humble enough to accept what the Bible really teaches over man’s or woman’s opinions!!!

Now you make a very valuable point, that makes sense, “It hard for people to deny that when they read they ask questions and they go searching for answers. They need sources in which to hunt things on that are accurate. The more accurate we get the better the knowledge of the Bible is for just the average reader, but even without tools for thousands of years God as changed lives when one reads scripture” and I submit to you that if you take the time to do the research, you will find that what the Bible teaches, often conflicts with what is taught in Christendom that people everywhere for years have taken for granted!!!!

I do not use other people’s thoughts or exegesis to tell me what is plainly and simply stated in the Bible, by my God and Father or I might become a follower of Hulda etc! This is exactly what the Bible warns against!!!!

Sadly, the end of your post does not make sense, though I understand it is your opinion!!!!

God’s love does indeed encompass us all, however, we know about him, his love
and his Son, from the Bible, that I submit to you, is NOT what you and many others believe, as you go to other outside sources for this information as though God’s word is not complete, or is so poorly written that he needs humans to help him explain what He had inspired others to write for our benefit!!!! This makes no sense!!!!

Come on! This may be the God you and others on this Board worship, but it is NOT the God I worship. I worship the God of the Bible, through his illustrious Son, our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Tony?

How do you think one should go about trying someone? I mean seriously that is vague in 1 John 4.

Well let's see what else does that passage say? So go for it Tony? and let's see how you respond.

Actually I love I John for the reason of knowing who the anti christ is as well as knowing who brothers and sisters in Christ are. But what about I Corinthians 12:3?

It makes me made to hear Christ name taken in vain. But it is a common practice among heathens.

[truth_child]

GOD NAME hould never be taken in vain but im afraid we say things some time not cussing but things that are vain words that we sahll give account for in the day of judgement

[turtle]

GOD NAME hould never be taken in vain but im afraid we say things some time not cussing but things that are vain words that we sahll give account for in the day of judgement

Arron, how do you deal with I John 2:1, 2,

[truth_child]

i beleive it teaches that we are NOT to sin BUT if we do we have a covenant with THE FATHER and that covenant is JESUS CHRIST and that JESUS paid the proce for our sins and not for yours and mine but for the sins of the whole world
how do you deal with it

[truth_child]

oh and one more thing before you ask i did not say that we cussed or anythign but that we said things which had no meaning and were as wind that blows away