the trinity

[turtle]

i beleive it teaches that we are NOT to sin BUT if we do we have a covenant with THE FATHER and that covenant is JESUS CHRIST and that JESUS paid the proce for our sins and not for yours and mine but for the sins of the whole world
how do you deal with it

Did he pay for sins for today as well as the sins before we got saved?

[truth_child]

absolutly HE PAID FOR ALL our sins past preasent and furture we only have to acept HIS PAYMENT BY FAITH IN HIS BLOOD

[praetorian]

How do you think one should go about trying someone? I mean seriously that is vague in 1 John 4.

Well let's see what else does that passage say? So go for it Tony? and let's see how you respond.

Actually I love I John for the reason of knowing who the anti christ is as well as knowing who brothers and sisters in Christ are. But what about I Corinthians 12:3?

It makes me made to hear Christ name taken in vain. But it is a common practice among heathens.

Dear Turtle:

First and foremost, to date, you have completely chosen to ignore the support I gave you about 16 other English Bibles on John 1:1 as well as the manuscript references provided, not to mention one you can gain access to online for FREE (a third) and the scriptures written after Jesus returned to heaven, where they clearly state, “the God and Father of our Lord Jesus”!!!! You also failed to address many other points, and have instead chosen to change, or alter subject matter, as though I never posted!!! Bravo, all you do, is let people see for themselves, that you choose to ignore and respond to things selectively, however this board, serves as indelible evidence against you and others here, that what is posted is not going to disappear, nor is it invalidated because you choose to ignore it! With that said, I will respond your post below since I find it shocking that as a believer in God and the Bible, you do not know this, but choose to call it vague!

Fortunate for you, we again have the Bible as the authority to address questions like this and not one’s personal opinion. As to your “opinion” that it is vague, let us see how accurate this is below.

1 John 4:1, clearly states three things; 1. That we should not just “believe” every spirit, or testimony (we call that blind credulity) and that instead we are to: 2. Test them, why; 3. Because of the prevalence of “many” false prophets”. How is this vague?

Now, how can we test someone’s testimony or spirit, as to whether it the “truth”, they are relaying, claiming it originates with God? There can be only ONE way, and that is, to test it against what is clearly stated in the Bible, as this is where we learn about God, his Son and Salvation in the FIRST PLACE!!!!! Are you serious?????

2 Timothy 3:16 and 17 clearly states, “All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.” The Bible is the acid test, not your feelings, and or those of others, in order to make corrections!!! How fortunate we are that God has saw fit not to leave this to humans, but has provided us with written guidance, in order for us to test and see if we are being misled and or are truly in the faith!!!

As to your jumping subjects again to the antichrist for this, and also in 1 Corinthians 12:3, with a context concerning the Gifts of the Spirit, all I have to say, is; What does this have to do with this subject matter of 1 John 4:1, about testing the spirit or testimony? What does this have to do with the price bananas???

I am not going to play this, switch and bait, subject matter with you, which is a tactic you use, when you are unable to confront the plain and simple Bible facts!!!

I have a honest and humble tip for you. When I am confronted with someone new, that I did not know, I do NOT OPEN MY MOUTH, OR WRITE against it, until digest it first, as I may in fact be wrong!!!!!!!! How about that for a the tip of the day!!!!

TonyP

[praetorian]

Dear Turtle and TC:

I would like to take a different approach with you both. I trust that you aware of that we as humans study history, as it is often stated that history repeats itself and so therefore, we study history, among other things, with the intent of learning to avoid past mistakes. For instance if I mention the Holocaust, you would know this to be a part of history, and would NOT deny the same, and yet there are some, that for whatever reason, whether political or other agenda, take the reverse position as though the Holocaust did not exist, despite the evidence. I am hoping that you both are not like that!!!! Therefore, let us discuss the history of the Trinity which is a FACT!!!! Unless, like the Holocaust, you wish to deny it!

The factual history of the Trinity, in particular with regards to Christendom, (as it predates Christendom-more on this later) which in history cannot be denied, clearly comes from the Athanasian Creed, dating back to the 8th and 9th centuries, that originated with the Counsel of Nicea (more than one) which Emperor Constantine (a pagan) presided over early in the 4th century, therefore, I will save space here by not taking the time to quote several historical references for this, (you need to do the research for yourself, and start with Encyclopedia’s and move on from there) that clearly state numerous things about the history of the Trinity doctrine, though highlight and consolidate some of their comments here below;

1. The word Trinity is not found in any Bible (as it is not in any manuscript Hebrew or Greek) nor is the explicit doctrine found in the Bible as well, [My personal comment: not counting the scriptures which must be interpreted due to theology, creeds and dogma]. 2. The Trinity was a concept that was created some 300 hundred plus years after Christ and the Apostles, and was later adopted officially into Christendom (the Roman Catholic Church) nearly 500 hundred years later; 3. It was created and adopted over much political turmoil and controversy, with historically documented, vehement disagreements and heated debates; 4. The meeting was presided over and decided by a pagan, who was not Christian, but baptized on his death bed and was the emperor of Rome; 5. The same encyclopedias and historical sources, clearly state, that the Jews did not and still do not believe in a Trinity (feel free to check Jewish sources and encyclopedias or just ask any Jew today) and that the early Christians of the first century did not believe in a Trinity as well [it is interesting to note that many more sources than the Encyclopedia Britannica state this specifically] and; 6. The Trinity of God(s) is found in almost all pagan religions, and predates the Trinity in Christendom by thousands of years! [Side Comment: It is interesting to note, that the Holy Scriptures clearly, simply and plainly refers to the Messiah, Jesus Christ our Lord and Master as the “Son of God”, not the other way around (almost like mental dyslexia) as “God the Son”, as found in dogmas, creeds and theologies]

It is also interesting to note, that in nearly “all” pagan religions, you will find an interesting common denominator to three commonly held beliefs (via dogma, creeds and theology) in Christendom: 1. The Trinity; 2. The Immortality of the Soul and; 3. Bad people are punished in a place of torment, Hellfire! Check this out for yourself!!!!!

History also shows us that these three common beliefs were carried onto and throughout the “Holy Roman Empire” into the “Holy Roman Catholic Church” and later, when others began to break away, like the Calvinists, Luther, the Protestant (which include the various types of Pentecostals, Baptists etc.) reformation etc., they took with them these same identical beliefs while changing the ceremonies, politics and or procedures on how they worshipped, but oddly enough, they clearly kept in place nearly ALL central beliefs! This is ALL historical fact that no one, not you nor I, no matter how much we disagree, or feel differently over, will be able to alter!

Due the research! And don’t hand me the I have God’s Spirit routine, as I can place many people claiming that from your differing forms of Pentecostalism, Baptists, etc. and they will ALL SAY THE SAME THING, which in the end, proves nothing, which is why we need to test inspired utterances, spirits and testimonies, as stated in 1 John 4:1, with the Bible, and not some Dr. written man or women creed, dogma, theology etc, that came well after the Bible was completed!!!!!!

TonyP

[the_apostolic_truth_ministries]

Mr Praetorian: the guard, I like that. Exactly what are you guarding?

The word Trinity is not in the Bible.

The Great Wall of China is not mentioned in the Bible. Nor is the United States, nor the internet. Is that "proof" positive these things do not exist?

[easeltine]

Tony,

Please explain Isaiah 9:6 from your perspective.

E

[turtle]

Dear Turtle and TC:

I would like to take a different approach with you both. I trust that you aware of that we as humans study history, as it is often stated that history repeats itself and so therefore, we study history, among other things, with the intent of learning to avoid past mistakes. For instance if I mention the Holocaust, you would know this to be a part of history, and would NOT deny the same, and yet there are some, that for whatever reason, whether political or other agenda, take the reverse position as though the Holocaust did not exist, despite the evidence. I am hoping that you both are not like that!!!! Therefore, let us discuss the history of the Trinity which is a FACT!!!! Unless, like the Holocaust, you wish to deny it!

The factual history of the Trinity, in particular with regards to Christendom, (as it predates Christendom-more on this later) which in history cannot be denied, clearly comes from the Athanasian Creed, dating back to the 8th and 9th centuries, that originated with the Counsel of Nicea (more than one) which Emperor Constantine (a pagan) presided over early in the 4th century, therefore, I will save space here by not taking the time to quote several historical references for this, (you need to do the research for yourself, and start with Encyclopedia’s and move on from there) that clearly state numerous things about the history of the Trinity doctrine, though highlight and consolidate some of their comments here below;

1. The word Trinity is not found in any Bible (as it is not in any manuscript Hebrew or Greek) nor is the explicit doctrine found in the Bible as well, [My personal comment: not counting the scriptures which must be interpreted due to theology, creeds and dogma]. 2. The Trinity was a concept that was created some 300 hundred plus years after Christ and the Apostles, and was later adopted officially into Christendom (the Roman Catholic Church) nearly 500 hundred years later; 3. It was created and adopted over much political turmoil and controversy, with historically documented, vehement disagreements and heated debates; 4. The meeting was presided over and decided by a pagan, who was not Christian, but baptized on his death bed and was the emperor of Rome; 5. The same encyclopedias and historical sources, clearly state, that the Jews did not and still do not believe in a Trinity (feel free to check Jewish sources and encyclopedias or just ask any Jew today) and that the early Christians of the first century did not believe in a Trinity as well [it is interesting to note that many more sources than the Encyclopedia Britannica state this specifically] and; 6. The Trinity of God(s) is found in almost all pagan religions, and predates the Trinity in Christendom by thousands of years! [Side Comment: It is interesting to note, that the Holy Scriptures clearly, simply and plainly refers to the Messiah, Jesus Christ our Lord and Master as the “Son of God”, not the other way around (almost like mental dyslexia) as “God the Son”, as found in dogmas, creeds and theologies]

It is also interesting to note, that in nearly “all” pagan religions, you will find an interesting common denominator to three commonly held beliefs (via dogma, creeds and theology) in Christendom: 1. The Trinity; 2. The Immortality of the Soul and; 3. Bad people are punished in a place of torment, Hellfire! Check this out for yourself!!!!!

History also shows us that these three common beliefs were carried onto and throughout the “Holy Roman Empire” into the “Holy Roman Catholic Church” and later, when others began to break away, like the Calvinists, Luther, the Protestant (which include the various types of Pentecostals, Baptists etc.) reformation etc., they took with them these same identical beliefs while changing the ceremonies, politics and or procedures on how they worshipped, but oddly enough, they clearly kept in place nearly ALL central beliefs! This is ALL historical fact that no one, not you nor I, no matter how much we disagree, or feel differently over, will be able to alter!

Due the research! And don’t hand me the I have God’s Spirit routine, as I can place many people claiming that from your differing forms of Pentecostalism, Baptists, etc. and they will ALL SAY THE SAME THING, which in the end, proves nothing, which is why we need to test inspired utterances, spirits and testimonies, as stated in 1 John 4:1, with the Bible, and not some Dr. written man or women creed, dogma, theology etc, that came well after the Bible was completed!!!!!!

TonyP

Actually I do believe the Holocaust happened. I believe persecution still exist. There are many scripture that back the trinty would you like me to proceed. It more then just John 14, it just happened to be one of my Favorites. Let's start in old testament to prove the Holy Spirit.

Exodus 35:30-31 KJV
(30) And Moses said unto the children of Israel, See, the LORD hath called by name Bezaleel the son of Uri, the son of Hur, of the tribe of Judah;
(31) And he hath filled him with the spirit of God, in wisdom, in understanding, and in knowledge, and in all manner of workmanship;

No way is this man God. But He is filled with the Spirit of God.

Numbers 11:16-17 KJV
(16) And the LORD said unto Moses, Gather unto me seventy men of the elders of Israel, whom thou knowest to be the elders of the people, and officers over them; and bring them unto the tabernacle of the congregation, that they may stand there with thee.
(17) And I will come down and talk with thee there: and I will take of the spirit which is upon thee, and will put it upon them; and they shall bear the burden of the people with thee, that thou bear it not thyself alone.
Numbers 11:25 KJV
(25) And the LORD came down in a cloud, and spake unto him, and took of the spirit that was upon him, and gave it unto the seventy elders: and it came to pass, that, when the spirit rested upon them, they prophesied, and did not cease.

Numbers 11:26 KJV
(26) But there remained two of the men in the camp, the name of the one was Eldad, and the name of the other Medad: and the spirit rested upon them; and they were of them that were written, but went not out unto the tabernacle: and they prophesied in the camp.

This is to get us started do you want me to continue. These are elder of the Jewsih people. What does the Targum say?

[praetorian]

[QUOTE=the_apostolic_truth_ministries;365583]Mr Praetorian: the guard, I like that. Exactly what are you guarding?


No need to guard anything, as I chose the handle from the intro of a Robert Ludlum Book, The Hades Factor!

You may have missed the point, and I sorry if you did. Let me put it another way; If I said that the Great Wall of China, United States and the Internet are “clearly stated in the Bible” and then point to scriptures that need me to interpret them, to mean the Great Wall etc, then I should be forced to admit it more correctly like; The Bible does not state clearly or directly the Wall of China etc. but it does so by inference, etc., like this “bird” in book and verse so and so, really means China; trust me!!!!

The next time you use an analogy like this, make sure you place it into context, or hope the person responding has poor comprehension skills!

Tata TATM

[dobman53]

Praetioian: Your beating your head against a wall. How's that!! you may ask?

No amount of evidence within the Bible will change the minds of those who choose to please past doctrines above the that of God.

When Jesus said he was not doing his will but the fathers who sent him. This can't be stated any clearer!! Yet their past doctrine says different, so guess who wins!!

I've attempted in the past to inform of the perfect God head, but NO!! such talk doesn't correlate with past doctrines so out it goes!!

They have one goal, and it is to please their fellow believers. They in essance must lower God to their level so to feel all goose pimpely inside. Thats where their love is found all within themselves.

DOB!

[praetorian]

Tony,

Please explain Isaiah 9:6 from your perspective.

E

Why; would a poor explanation, make what I posted here in this thread, magically disappear or wrong some how?

Really, do you want me to do this, as even if you don't agree (and I am betting you won't) it will not alter the facts I presented Biblically, Reference wise and or Historically, or is this just wishful thinking!!!!

LOL

TonyP

[easeltine]

Well, if I understand correctly where you are coming from, did not Murray tell you guys not to debate about the Trinity? You are correct that I believe in The Apostles, The Nicene, and The Athanasian Creed.

[turtle]

Dear Turtle:

First and foremost, to date, you have completely chosen to ignore the support I gave you about 16 other English Bibles on John 1:1 as well as the manuscript references provided, not to mention one you can gain access to online for FREE (a third) and the scriptures written after Jesus returned to heaven, where they clearly state, “the God and Father of our Lord Jesus”!!!! You also failed to address many other points, and have instead chosen to change, or alter subject matter, as though I never posted!!! Bravo, all you do, is let people see for themselves, that you choose to ignore and respond to things selectively, however this board, serves as indelible evidence against you and others here, that what is posted is not going to disappear, nor is it invalidated because you choose to ignore it! With that said, I will respond your post below since I find it shocking that as a believer in God and the Bible, you do not know this, but choose to call it vague!

Fortunate for you, we again have the Bible as the authority to address questions like this and not one’s personal opinion. As to your “opinion” that it is vague, let us see how accurate this is below.

1 John 4:1, clearly states three things; 1. That we should not just “believe” every spirit, or testimony (we call that blind credulity) and that instead we are to: 2. Test them, why; 3. Because of the prevalence of “many” false prophets”. How is this vague?

Now, how can we test someone’s testimony or spirit, as to whether it the “truth”, they are relaying, claiming it originates with God? There can be only ONE way, and that is, to test it against what is clearly stated in the Bible, as this is where we learn about God, his Son and Salvation in the FIRST PLACE!!!!! Are you serious?????

2 Timothy 3:16 and 17 clearly states, “All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.” The Bible is the acid test, not your feelings, and or those of others, in order to make corrections!!! How fortunate we are that God has saw fit not to leave this to humans, but has provided us with written guidance, in order for us to test and see if we are being misled and or are truly in the faith!!!

As to your jumping subjects again to the antichrist for this, and also in 1 Corinthians 12:3, with a context concerning the Gifts of the Spirit, all I have to say, is; What does this have to do with this subject matter of 1 John 4:1, about testing the spirit or testimony? What does this have to do with the price bananas???

I am not going to play this, switch and bait, subject matter with you, which is a tactic you use, when you are unable to confront the plain and simple Bible facts!!!

I have a honest and humble tip for you. When I am confronted with someone new, that I did not know, I do NOT OPEN MY MOUTH, OR WRITE against it, until digest it first, as I may in fact be wrong!!!!!!!! How about that for a the tip of the day!!!!

TonyP

I do know how to test the spirit because it is writen in scripture. Yet you like to confuse and change the subject to testing the spirit from the trinity. Yes i claim Jesus Christ as Lord. But see TonyP have you claim it, no not in one post I have seen of yours, but then I do not do a lot of back tracking for a reason, people change over a course of time on these boards. Sometimes, doctrinally, emotinally and sometimes even spiritually. But usually you do not see the effects without asking questions. Now my friend you claim to be a Christian do you claim Jesus as Lord?

[turtle]

Well, if I understand correctly where you are coming from, did not Murray tell you guys not to debate about the Trinity? You are correct that I believe in The Apostles, The Nicene, and The Athanasian Creed.

I believe the Bible. I know they are backed by Biblical principals. I just could not resist this AM.

[praetorian]

Praetioian: Your beating your head against a wall. How's that!! you may ask?

No amount of evidence within the Bible will change the minds of those who choose to please past doctrines above the that of God.

When Jesus said he was not doing his will but the fathers who sent him. This can't be stated any clearer!! Yet their past doctrine says different, so guess who wins!!

I've attempted in the past to inform of the perfect God head, but NO!! such talk doesn't correlate with past doctrines so out it goes!!

They have one goal, and it is to please their fellow believers. They in essance must lower God to their level so to feel all goose pimpely inside. Thats where their love is found all within themselves.

DOB!

Hi DOB:

No, I am having fun, and using this as an object lesson (In my non-internet world) to clearly demonstrate, that you can indeed prove things to people, and despite any amount of proof, people will hear, what they want to hear, and listen to what they want to listen, thereby bringing to life for an application today, Matthew 13:14, “In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah: " 'You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.”

You are indeed correct when you infer the crystal clear clarity of the scriptures at John 6:38, “For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me” and also at Matthew 26:39, “Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, "My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will." Duh!!!! But people like the ones spoken of by Isaiah quoted by Jesus make these texts come alive!!!!

Best regards,

TonyP

[truth_child]

i beleive in the triity GOD THE FATHER AND GOD THE SON AND GOD THE HOLY GHOST now one can say JESUS is THE FATHER AND JESUS IS THE SON AND JESUS IS THE HOLY GHOST ALL THEY WANT BUT NO these THREE ARE ONE IN COMPLETE UNITY

[praetorian]

Actually I do believe the Holocaust happened. I believe persecution still exist. There are many scripture that back the trinty would you like me to proceed. It more then just John 14, it just happened to be one of my Favorites. Let's start in old testament to prove the Holy Spirit.

Exodus 35:30-31 KJV
(30) And Moses said unto the children of Israel, See, the LORD hath called by name Bezaleel the son of Uri, the son of Hur, of the tribe of Judah;
(31) And he hath filled him with the spirit of God, in wisdom, in understanding, and in knowledge, and in all manner of workmanship;

No way is this man God. But He is filled with the Spirit of God.

Numbers 11:16-17 KJV
(16) And the LORD said unto Moses, Gather unto me seventy men of the elders of Israel, whom thou knowest to be the elders of the people, and officers over them; and bring them unto the tabernacle of the congregation, that they may stand there with thee.
(17) And I will come down and talk with thee there: and I will take of the spirit which is upon thee, and will put it upon them; and they shall bear the burden of the people with thee, that thou bear it not thyself alone.
Numbers 11:25 KJV
(25) And the LORD came down in a cloud, and spake unto him, and took of the spirit that was upon him, and gave it unto the seventy elders: and it came to pass, that, when the spirit rested upon them, they prophesied, and did not cease.

Numbers 11:26 KJV
(26) But there remained two of the men in the camp, the name of the one was Eldad, and the name of the other Medad: and the spirit rested upon them; and they were of them that were written, but went not out unto the tabernacle: and they prophesied in the camp.

This is to get us started do you want me to continue. These are elder of the Jewsih people. What does the Targum say?

Dear Turtle:

Careful there, as you are setting a precedent against yourself by accepting history and using as a reference false non-Christian sources!

Wow, let me go more s-l-o-w-l-y,…..I used the introduction of the history of the Holocaust, to set the stage for the history of the Trinity, both of which cannot be denied! I am truly sorry you don’t get this or do not understand E-n-g-l-i-s-h! K (Valley Girl infection with mixed drum rolls please).

AGAIN, you never responded on point, to my posts, which is the trait of both a con artist and a brainwashed person, IGNORE WHAT IS SAID AND REPEAT WHAT WORKS FOR YOU, OR CHANGE THE SUBJECT MATTER BUT REPEAT THE THEME!!!!!! K!

You obviously have some sort of need to “Prove” the Holy Spirit, and I am wondering why, with me, as I believe in the Holy Spirit? Duh!!!! But you amuse me with your “mind” so I will play along even though it is not germane to our exchanges where you selectively ignored facts presented----that in and of itself, says something about you and your beliefs!!!!!!

First, you quote from Exodus 35:30-1, and I first note, that the LORD here is in capital letters and ask, do you know why? (Side Bar: Take a look at Exodus 5:22, and note “LORD” verses “Lord”, side by side, why? Well, here in Hebrew, LORD is not used by rather substituted, (read your KJV introduction please for verification of the same).

Now here God’s personal name, which is in ALL Hebrew manuscripts is used, YHWH which in English is Jehovah. So, we have here, Moses informing the Jews that Jehovah, has selected some people for certain tasks….Now you will note that when the spirit was given to them, it caused something to occur, (Interesting, like when used in Genesis in creation, it had an affect on things) it infused power of understanding of certain crafts!!! However no where in this scripture does it support a Trinity!!!! And if you are trying to tie this into the post you made wherein you discussed John 14:10, (You have a bad memory, as I did not forget what you did, though you may fool people reading this post, without the benefit of knowing where this exchange originated from, further back in this thread) where it states in part, “that I am in the Father and the Father is in me” as a direct proof to establish the Trinity! Do you remember now?

OK, my response was that if you read verse 20 of that same Chapter, which states, “On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you” which makes clear, that you cannot use this scripture (verse 10) to support the Trinity as verse 20 explains what Jesus meant! Now it is here, that I pointed out to you, that if you take verse 10 literally, then you must also take verse 20 literally, to mean we are in Jesus and Jesus is in us literally, when he is NOT! So, your going to Exodus to explain what I pointed out to you, does not make any sense!!!

So, know that I agree with your “selective” portrayal and conclusion here that “No way is this man God. But He is filled with the Spirit of God.” Ditto, however I laid out the context here above, so you do not get lost with yourself or the point you originally made!!!! At this point I must ask you; are you suffering from some sort of mental illness, and I do not mean this in a derogatory way, but let’s face it, if you have the memory of a goldfish or cannot keep track of your own posting themes and responses, why do you engage in such exchanges, as you are making a fool of yourself to everyone here and they do not have to agree with the scriptures and references I referred you too in order to SEE THIS!!!

Now here, you simply do more of the same by referring me to Numbers 11: 16, 17, 25 and 26, which establishes NOTHING at all for support of the Trinity, and only goes to support that God YHWH- Jehovah, “the Father and God of the Lord Jesus Christ”, (let me know if you need the scriptures in the NT that express the quoted part) gave his spirit to certain ones of the Jews, that CAUSED them to do things!!! And again, you are misusing the application or analogy of being “IN YOU” that you stated incorrectly about John 14:10 when you conveniently neglected to mention verse 20!

Now here is where you show both your ignorance and why we clearly have a difference of opinion! You ask, “What does the Targum say?” and I reply, who cares, it is not the Bible!!!!!!! It is you that use 3rd party sources, outside the Bible (in effect placing the Bible into second place behind these sources) to support your beliefs!!! Get it!!! LOL….WOW.

Let me go s-l-o-w-l-y again for you; The Targum, as distinguished from the TANAK or as some spell it, TANAKH or TANACH is the Jewish Bible, which we as Christians refer to as the Hebrew Scriptures, or Old Testament! The Targum, is a non-Christian source, as is the Numenius, Pliny the Elder, Lucius Apuleius, a Qumran writing, the Targum of Jonathan, and several apocryphal writings, not forgetting to mention Hulda, and a slew of other non Biblical sources!

I don’t care what the Targum says, as this is a paraphrased writing with opinions, read by Jews TODAY along with the Torah which is in the TANAK, nor do I care what dogmas’ creeds and theologies you believe in, as I ONLY BELIEVE IN WHAT THE BIBLE REALLY TEACHES!!!

Next time you want to play, choose a child from your mental age and sand box, and try to keep to the rules and remember what you write as you make yourself look real BAD!!!!

TonyP

[praetorian]

I do know how to test the spirit because it is writen in scripture. Yet you like to confuse and change the subject to testing the spirit from the trinity. Yes i claim Jesus Christ as Lord. But see TonyP have you claim it, no not in one post I have seen of yours, but then I do not do a lot of back tracking for a reason, people change over a course of time on these boards. Sometimes, doctrinally, emotinally and sometimes even spiritually. But usually you do not see the effects without asking questions. Now my friend you claim to be a Christian do you claim Jesus as Lord?

I am sorry if you do not know how to follow the Bible’s counsel, as it is clear, much clearer than you non Biblical sources!

I challenge you to prove here before everyone, by showing simple side by side examples of what you express here as “Yet you like to confuse and change the subject to testing the spirit from the Trinity.” YOU DO THIS!!! When I make comments I do so with clear support from the Bible, and references sources, and if this is wrong, then point it out, like I do to you! Talk or making statements that are not backed up is CHEAP!!!

I too agree that Jesus Christ is our Lord and Savior, but he is not the same spirit person as his Father who is Lord of all including Jesus or the scriptures would not make no sense when it refers to Jesus’ Father, as the “God and Father of Jesus.” I have not only expressed it here, I have indeed done so in my posts!!! Which brings me to issues of a sensitive nature, that of your mind! It is either a non working mind or you are purposely trying to deceive!!!! Bad on both counts needing help!

Thank you for admitting that you do not do a lot of back tracking, then again I have a tip for you; stay away from making points or taking sides on issues if you cannot keep track of the exchanges as it does nothing for you, but make you look poorly!

Yes, and I am not your friend, I am a Christian and if it is not evident in these writings to you, we done!!!!!

TonyP

[praetorian]

I believe the Bible. I know they are backed by Biblical principals. I just could not resist this AM.

By All Means Resist for Your Sake!!!!

[praetorian]

Well, if I understand correctly where you are coming from, did not Murray tell you guys not to debate about the Trinity? You are correct that I believe in The Apostles, The Nicene, and The Athanasian Creed.

Dear Easeline:

I am confused, other than to understand that you clearly admit before everyone on this board, that you take 3rd party, outside Bible sources from which to base you belief and worship in God.

OK, I respect that! Though this begs the question, that since we learn about God and his Son Jesus Christ from the Bible, why do you believe you need to go outside the Bible for your beliefs?

TonyP

[turtle]

Dear Turtle:

Careful there, as you are setting a precedent against yourself by accepting history and using as a reference false non-Christian sources!

Wow, let me go more s-l-o-w-l-y,…..I used the introduction of the history of the Holocaust, to set the stage for the history of the Trinity, both of which cannot be denied! I am truly sorry you don’t get this or do not understand E-n-g-l-i-s-h! K (Valley Girl infection with mixed drum rolls please).

AGAIN, you never responded on point, to my posts, which is the trait of both a con artist and a brainwashed person, IGNORE WHAT IS SAID AND REPEAT WHAT WORKS FOR YOU, OR CHANGE THE SUBJECT MATTER BUT REPEAT THE THEME!!!!!! K!

You obviously have some sort of need to “Prove” the Holy Spirit, and I am wondering why, with me, as I believe in the Holy Spirit? Duh!!!! But you amuse me with your “mind” so I will play along even though it is not germane to our exchanges where you selectively ignored facts presented----that in and of itself, says something about you and your beliefs!!!!!!

First, you quote from Exodus 35:30-1, and I first note, that the LORD here is in capital letters and ask, do you know why? (Side Bar: Take a look at Exodus 5:22, and note “LORD” verses “Lord”, side by side, why? Well, here in Hebrew, LORD is not used by rather substituted, (read your KJV introduction please for verification of the same).

Now here God’s personal name, which is in ALL Hebrew manuscripts is used, YHWH which in English is Jehovah. So, we have here, Moses informing the Jews that Jehovah, has selected some people for certain tasks….Now you will note that when the spirit was given to them, it caused something to occur, (Interesting, like when used in Genesis in creation, it had an affect on things) it infused power of understanding of certain crafts!!! However no where in this scripture does it support a Trinity!!!! And if you are trying to tie this into the post you made wherein you discussed John 14:10, (You have a bad memory, as I did not forget what you did, though you may fool people reading this post, without the benefit of knowing where this exchange originated from, further back in this thread) where it states in part, “that I am in the Father and the Father is in me” as a direct proof to establish the Trinity! Do you remember now?

OK, my response was that if you read verse 20 of that same Chapter, which states, “On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you” which makes clear, that you cannot use this scripture (verse 10) to support the Trinity as verse 20 explains what Jesus meant! Now it is here, that I pointed out to you, that if you take verse 10 literally, then you must also take verse 20 literally, to mean we are in Jesus and Jesus is in us literally, when he is NOT! So, your going to Exodus to explain what I pointed out to you, does not make any sense!!!

So, know that I agree with your “selective” portrayal and conclusion here that “No way is this man God. But He is filled with the Spirit of God.” Ditto, however I laid out the context here above, so you do not get lost with yourself or the point you originally made!!!! At this point I must ask you; are you suffering from some sort of mental illness, and I do not mean this in a derogatory way, but let’s face it, if you have the memory of a goldfish or cannot keep track of your own posting themes and responses, why do you engage in such exchanges, as you are making a fool of yourself to everyone here and they do not have to agree with the scriptures and references I referred you too in order to SEE THIS!!!

Now here, you simply do more of the same by referring me to Numbers 11: 16, 17, 25 and 26, which establishes NOTHING at all for support of the Trinity, and only goes to support that God YHWH- Jehovah, “the Father and God of the Lord Jesus Christ”, (let me know if you need the scriptures in the NT that express the quoted part) gave his spirit to certain ones of the Jews, that CAUSED them to do things!!! And again, you are misusing the application or analogy of being “IN YOU” that you stated incorrectly about John 14:10 when you conveniently neglected to mention verse 20!

Now here is where you show both your ignorance and why we clearly have a difference of opinion! You ask, “What does the Targum say?” and I reply, who cares, it is not the Bible!!!!!!! It is you that use 3rd party sources, outside the Bible (in effect placing the Bible into second place behind these sources) to support your beliefs!!! Get it!!! LOL….WOW.

Let me go s-l-o-w-l-y again for you; The Targum, as distinguished from the TANAK or as some spell it, TANAKH or TANACH is the Jewish Bible, which we as Christians refer to as the Hebrew Scriptures, or Old Testament! The Targum, is a non-Christian source, as is the Numenius, Pliny the Elder, Lucius Apuleius, a Qumran writing, the Targum of Jonathan, and several apocryphal writings, not forgetting to mention Hulda, and a slew of other non Biblical sources!

I don’t care what the Targum says, as this is a paraphrased writing with opinions, read by Jews TODAY along with the Torah which is in the TANAK, nor do I care what dogmas’ creeds and theologies you believe in, as I ONLY BELIEVE IN WHAT THE BIBLE REALLY TEACHES!!!

Next time you want to play, choose a child from your mental age and sand box, and try to keep to the rules and remember what you write as you make yourself look real BAD!!!!

TonyP

Okay Christ is God

Isaiah 9:6 KJV
(6) For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Now though you like to insult and it does not become you at all. For one must take things in step. You do not deny the Holy Spirit, just the Son of God. Now I know you say you are tritarian, but you questions make me think other wise, but I think it is more to test me then to argue against what I am saying. You need to know how can I say the Father is in the son. Well I could come off with some off the wall jokes, but I will not, because I feel it is disrespectful to God and to other believers on the board. Fact is jews believe the old testament and not the new. I do not blame them for not seeing my beliefs. But when one looiks at isaiah 9:6,7. One must wonder how can Christ be both God and Son. Reason is the Spirit of God is in Him. His Spirit is God.

Isaiah 9:6-7 KJV
(6) For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
(7) Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

God's spirit does not just rest on Him, but is Him. Do you wish to precede now. Sorry about the insult of the targum it was not intended, It is the Bible of the caldeans though, Now even with the TAnaka what does Isaiah 9:6-7 say. Is it the same? If so what does it mean to you.