Would you consider yourself Christian?

[joe]

Would you consider yourself to be a Christian?

[dodge]

No, Joe, I would not consider myself a Christian…although I was born and raised in a strict French-Canadian Roman Catholic family. I went through eight years of parochial school taught by nuns, and went to confession and church every week; but I never believed any of it, even when I was young. It wasn’t for lack of trying. I became a Baha’i, a Methodist, and delved into Eastern religions and philosophies later in life (after having had a near death experience that put me on the mystical path); along with studying alternative doctrines that included Aleister Crowley, Eliphas Lévi, Theosophy and Tibetan Buddhism.

I studied psychology in college (with a focus on C.G. Jung and the archetypes of the collective unconscious), and it all came together in the realization/comprehension that in reality gods, angels, devils, Satan, Christ, and all so-called “supernatural beings” are projections of the unconscious that have no existence outside of the mind. This is my firm belief, something that has been obvious to me for many years now. At sixty-two, this is where I am in terms of belief. I might add that I do have beliefs about consciousness that border on mysticism; but there are no gods in my philosophy.

What about you? At what point in your life did you adopt a belief in the biblical God and Jesus?

Will.

[joe]

No, Joe, I would not consider myself a Christian…although I was born and raised in a strict French-Canadian Roman Catholic family. I went through eight years of parochial school taught by nuns, and went to confession and church every week; but I never believed any of it, even when I was young. It wasn’t for lack of trying. I became a Baha’i, a Methodist, and delved into Eastern religions and philosophies later in life (after having had a near death experience that put me on the mystical path); along with studying alternative doctrines that included Aleister Crowley, Eliphas Lévi, Theosophy and Tibetan Buddhism.

I studied psychology in college (with a focus on C.G. Jung and the archetypes of the collective unconscious), and it all came together in the realization/comprehension that in reality gods, angels, devils, Satan, Christ, and all so-called “supernatural beings” are projections of the unconscious that have no existence outside of the mind. This is my firm belief, something that has been obvious to me for many years now. At sixty-two, this is where I am in terms of belief. I might add that I do have beliefs about consciousness that border on mysticism; but there are no gods in my philosophy.

What about you? At what point in your life did you adopt a belief in the biblical God and Jesus?

Will.

Hey Will!!!!
Well I don't remember exactly what age.I know the Lord started dealing with me at a young age.But of coourse didn't give heed to the call until later in life.
If a person reads the Bible strictly as it reads,like a story book,then yes,it sounds like stories from Greek mythology.But if you really look at each verse for spiritual meaning,it will reveal itself.Actually the Greek myths were taken from Bible,not other way around.
joe

[turtle]

Dodge do you mind me asking you a question? You said you practiced certain faiths, however was it ever part of your heart? Do you believe at any point a true conversion ever took place at anytime? I do not ask to chastise or to belittle, I am just curious.

[chad14]

i was saved when i beleived on JESUS AND ACCEPTED HIM INTO my heart
and yes i consider my self a CHRISTian

[dodge]

Hi Turtle. You asked if the religions and philosophies that I studied in the past were ever a “part of my heart,” and if “at any point a true conversion took place.” Well, when I had that near death experience, the amazing things that I saw, that “were revealed to me,” were as real as the computer that I’m looking at now and the chair that I’m sitting on. It was truly a mystical vision that changed my life. After that, I discovered that I was on a quest that took me into some very interesting places. So yes, I would consider that vision to have been a transformative experience that was “part of my heart.” It was more than that. I felt that God was speaking to me through my guardian angel, who wrapped me in her wings and whispered some of the secrets of the Universe to me; and set me on the path of learning that led to the realization that the only place gods and supernatural beings exist is in the mind.

This doesn’t mean that there is nothing other than the physical universe around us that we perceive with our senses. The place deep within all of us where these images of God, Satan and Christ (and other supernatural beings) exist is where we, as consciousness, come from. I usually don’t talk about my personal beliefs; but since you essentially asked me if there was anything that I embraced in my “heart,” I wanted you to know that I do have deeply-felt beliefs. I will also point out that what I believe is only my interpretation of what I’ve experienced, the way that my conscious mind assimilated what was shown to me. Religion is the result of this very same process, the way the conscious mind takes what it is presented from the collective unconscious (or whatever you want to call it) and gives it form and shape so that we’re able to talk about it. What you know of as Christ is known to others who are not Christian, but only in a different appearance.

I don’t expect you to believe any of this, and I’m certainly not going to try to convert you to my way of thinking. There are many ways of understanding the nature of the Universe in which we seem to live, each according to our abilities. In my philosophy I don’t anthropomorphize or flesh out the essence of “reality” into human form as in mythology or religion. You are, of course, free to believe anything you want. However, in a public internet non-Christian forum such as FactNet, I’m free to comment on what others say. We’re just a group of people sharing our views and ideas…though there are many here who think that their personal belief system holds the one and only truth and all others who don’t share what they embrace are doomed to everlasting torment. I find that Christians in particular come from this point of view, that the “only way is through Christ,” and that anyone who would not embrace their personal god is of Satan and their “souls” will be tortured in Hell forever. I find that extremely offensive, so sometimes I lash out in my indignation when I come across them.

I hope that the holographic projection that you perceive around your center of consciousness brings you peace, health, love and prosperity, Turtle; but I will continue to confront you and others here who tell everyone that if they don’t accept their imaginary biblical Jesus the Christ as their personal savior they are going to hell. When you engage in this kind of behavior on internet forums, basically proselytizing as a Christian missionary, you are fair game.

[dodge]

Hi Joe. You wrote that you search each verse in the Bible for “spiritual meaning,” and that if I do the same “it will reveal itself.” I think you understand where I come from if you read my response to Turtle; but I will add that these “spiritual meanings” that you find in verses through endless reading, I believe, are coming more from you than the words that are in that book, through projection. This is why there are so many denominations of Christianity, why so many people who look deeply into the words of the Bible find things that are directly opposed to the things that other Christians see when they read the same words. The more deeply you look into the Bible the more of yourself you will find.

Look at all of the different ways of reading the Bible, each denomination believing their interpretation to be the truth. Roman Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, Protestant, Baptist, Lutheran, Seventh-Day Adventists, Shepherds Chapel, Mormon…each one with deeply-felt beliefs that those who don’t see what they do are wrong.

You come here with your particular Christian beliefs, telling us that the Catholic church is a whore, that your Jesus the Christ has been around since the “creation” of the Universe in the form of “light,” and “sinners that don’t receive Christ as Savior” will suffer in Hell; and that you are “blessed by having the Spirit discern the Scriptures” unto you. You put yourself above other Christians here in this forum by saying that “most students on this forum” are in kindergarten whereas you are in the “third grade,” and you wrote that they “speak nonsense.”

Joe, you’re just another proselytizing Christian who thinks he sees more deeply into the Bible than others, and is here to act as a beacon of light for all of us who don’t see what you do. You Christians are very entertaining.

[joe]

Hi Joe. You wrote that you search each verse in the Bible for “spiritual meaning,” and that if I do the same “it will reveal itself.” I think you understand where I come from if you read my response to Turtle; but I will add that these “spiritual meanings” that you find in verses through endless reading, I believe, are coming more from you than the words that are in that book, through projection. This is why there are so many denominations of Christianity, why so many people who look deeply into the words of the Bible find things that are directly opposed to the things that other Christians see when they read the same words. The more deeply you look into the Bible the more of yourself you will find.

Look at all of the different ways of reading the Bible, each denomination believing their interpretation to be the truth. Roman Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, Protestant, Baptist, Lutheran, Seventh-Day Adventists, Shepherds Chapel, Mormon…each one with deeply-felt beliefs that those who don’t see what they do are wrong.

You come here with your particular Christian beliefs, telling us that the Catholic church is a whore, that your Jesus the Christ has been around since the “creation” of the Universe in the form of “light,” and “sinners that don’t receive Christ as Savior” will suffer in Hell; and that you are “blessed by having the Spirit discern the Scriptures” unto you. You put yourself above other Christians here in this forum by saying that “most students on this forum” are in kindergarten whereas you are in the “third grade,” and you wrote that they “speak nonsense.”

Joe, you’re just another proselytizing Christian who thinks he sees more deeply into the Bible than others, and is here to act as a beacon of light for all of us who don’t see what you do. You Christians are very entertaining.

If I spoke of fairy tales and said,an all knowing supreme God,sat on his duff,knowing absolutely nothing about the division in his own kingdom,or of the coup that was forming aganst him, Would I seem more intellectual?
That a most powerful,high God,creater and ruler of the Universe,who knows the very hearts of all his creation,didn't know what was coming,and when it did,this all powerful being,had to call someone to take the guy out,would I then sound so foolish?
I can only speak what I know is true. There are others that know these things to be true.In all of the denominations.But because of fear of going against absurdities that has been handed down from generation to generation they are slow to bring these things to light. Most people never study for themselves to see if what they have been taught and believe is true or not.That's what daddy told them and their daddy's daddy for hundreds of years.
Yes, I do state I have knowledge of the Scriptures,and why shouldn't I boast,though not for me,but for the Lord blessing me.If I offend people because I listen to the Spirit and allow him to work in my life,is it not because they refuse to listen themselves and find the truth on their own?No one is forced to believe what I say.But if it will make them go and search for themselves,is that a bad thing?
These people who believe Satan was going to overthrow God (how they can't say),who believe incoherant babblings,is from the Holy Ghost and all other childish beliefs,believe it,because someone told them that's the way it is,and there's no use looking at it any different.
I appologize not for telling the truth.Grab a Bible,check out what I say before coming down on me.
One day I will tell you why Satan was created. But to get you started,what did the Apostle Paul mean,when he said he turned a man over to Satan that he may learn? Within that,lies the keys to understanding Satan and his mission.
My fingers are tired.I enjoy conversing with you.
Joe

[oneway]

Hi Joe. You wrote that you search each verse in the Bible for “spiritual meaning,” and that if I do the same “it will reveal itself.” I think you understand where I come from if you read my response to Turtle; but I will add that these “spiritual meanings” that you find in verses through endless reading, I believe, are coming more from you than the words that are in that book, through projection. This is why there are so many denominations of Christianity, why so many people who look deeply into the words of the Bible find things that are directly opposed to the things that other Christians see when they read the same words. The more deeply you look into the Bible the more of yourself you will find.

Look at all of the different ways of reading the Bible, each denomination believing their interpretation to be the truth. Roman Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, Protestant, Baptist, Lutheran, Seventh-Day Adventists, Shepherds Chapel, Mormon…each one with deeply-felt beliefs that those who don’t see what they do are wrong.

You come here with your particular Christian beliefs, telling us that the Catholic church is a whore, that your Jesus the Christ has been around since the “creation” of the Universe in the form of “light,” and “sinners that don’t receive Christ as Savior” will suffer in Hell; and that you are “blessed by having the Spirit discern the Scriptures” unto you. You put yourself above other Christians here in this forum by saying that “most students on this forum” are in kindergarten whereas you are in the “third grade,” and you wrote that they “speak nonsense.”

Joe, you’re just another proselytizing Christian who thinks he sees more deeply into the Bible than others, and is here to act as a beacon of light for all of us who don’t see what you do. You Christians are very entertaining.

You know what, Dodge? Unfortunately, I agree with you. Because you hit the nail on the head, and I would be of these same class of Christians, thinking I have a better understanding of things as well. But somewhere in the midst of all that, somebody has to be right. The problems occur when everyone thinks it is they who are right, while at the same time, everyone is disagreeing with one another. You have great insight IMO. But like the saying goes..don't throw the baby out with the bath water.

[dodge]

Howdy, Oneway. Why is it “unfortunate” that you agree with me? It’s a wise thing for you to realize that you might be amongst those Christians who, through the process of projection, believe that they see things in the Bible that others don‘t. The work that needs to be done, and which is very difficult, has to do with withdrawing your projections and integrating them into your consciousness in order to become whole.

An exercise that is worth considering is describing what it is that pushes your buttons about others, causes you to react negatively towards certain people that you don’t like. This will help you to discover what it is about yourself that you are unable to acknowledge, or refuse to admit (something that I have to keep reminding myself about). On a collective level, Satan represents the shadow of humanity, the dark part of human nature that is projected onto an imaginary image that has no existence outside of the mind. Until the mythically-projected images of Christ and Satan are integrated with each other, there will always be conflict, opposition and animosity. Metaphorically-speaking, Christ and Satan are brothers who were separated at birth, who are diametrically opposed to one another. If they come together and resolve their differences, the war between them can end.

Or so it seems to me.

[turtle]

Hi Turtle. You asked if the religions and philosophies that I studied in the past were ever a “part of my heart,” and if “at any point a true conversion took place.” Well, when I had that near death experience, the amazing things that I saw, that “were revealed to me,” were as real as the computer that I’m looking at now and the chair that I’m sitting on. It was truly a mystical vision that changed my life. After that, I discovered that I was on a quest that took me into some very interesting places. So yes, I would consider that vision to have been a transformative experience that was “part of my heart.” It was more than that. I felt that God was speaking to me through my guardian angel, who wrapped me in her wings and whispered some of the secrets of the Universe to me; and set me on the path of learning that led to the realization that the only place gods and supernatural beings exist is in the mind.

This doesn’t mean that there is nothing other than the physical universe around us that we perceive with our senses. The place deep within all of us where these images of God, Satan and Christ (and other supernatural beings) exist is where we, as consciousness, come from. I usually don’t talk about my personal beliefs; but since you essentially asked me if there was anything that I embraced in my “heart,” I wanted you to know that I do have deeply-felt beliefs. I will also point out that what I believe is only my interpretation of what I’ve experienced, the way that my conscious mind assimilated what was shown to me. Religion is the result of this very same process, the way the conscious mind takes what it is presented from the collective unconscious (or whatever you want to call it) and gives it form and shape so that we’re able to talk about it. What you know of as Christ is known to others who are not Christian, but only in a different appearance.

I don’t expect you to believe any of this, and I’m certainly not going to try to convert you to my way of thinking. There are many ways of understanding the nature of the Universe in which we seem to live, each according to our abilities. In my philosophy I don’t anthropomorphize or flesh out the essence of “reality” into human form as in mythology or religion. You are, of course, free to believe anything you want. However, in a public internet non-Christian forum such as FactNet, I’m free to comment on what others say. We’re just a group of people sharing our views and ideas…though there are many here who think that their personal belief system holds the one and only truth and all others who don’t share what they embrace are doomed to everlasting torment. I find that Christians in particular come from this point of view, that the “only way is through Christ,” and that anyone who would not embrace their personal god is of Satan and their “souls” will be tortured in Hell forever. I find that extremely offensive, so sometimes I lash out in my indignation when I come across them.

I hope that the holographic projection that you perceive around your center of consciousness brings you peace, health, love and prosperity, Turtle; but I will continue to confront you and others here who tell everyone that if they don’t accept their imaginary biblical Jesus the Christ as their personal savior they are going to hell. When you engage in this kind of behavior on internet forums, basically proselytizing as a Christian missionary, you are fair game.

Dodge if I say I believe the Bible which I do, then I can not leave one passage of scripture unread, or unchecked in my study, correct. However you claim your experience is at the mind level effecting the heart level, from what I understand you are saying. Meaning what you preceive is in your heart, and you perceive God is just your imagination though you experienced God. Okay fine, that your belief. Now I like looking in the Bible and seeing what God's word that has stood the test of time in believers of God believe and say hold on a minute dodge, as a believer I disagree withh you but I am not so fast to condemn you. Here is why,

Romans 9:15-33 KJV
(15) For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
(16) So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
(17) For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
(18) Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
(19) Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
(20) Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
(21) Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
(22) What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
(23) And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
(24) Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
(25) As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
(26) And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.
(27) Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:
(28) For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.
(29) And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha.
(30) What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
(31) But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
(32) Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
(33) As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

Dodge until you take that last breath in declaration that God does not exist I won't condemn you, but are you on your way to hell, according to my belief yes you are, because we all were once condemn and on the road to hell, some make the choice to be saved and others do not. Others are likthe Egyptian Pharaoh but even God said he will hve mercy on who He will have mercy. It not my place to judge the reason God created you.

[jargon631]

[QUOTE=dodge;400684].

We’re just a group of people sharing our views and ideas…though there are many here who think that their personal belief system holds the one and only truth and all others who don’t share what they embrace are doomed to everlasting torment. I find that Christians in particular come from this point of view, that the “only way is through Christ,” and that anyone who would not embrace their personal god is of Satan and their “souls” will be tortured in Hell forever.

hey dodge...happy belated veterens day...i agree with your statement above...most christians i encounter consider me to be either A) a misguided soul who just hasnt heard "the word" in the correct fashion or B) satans personal confidante...they insist that all those who are not christians (myself included) are somehow not on the same "elevated" plane as themselves...i guess that would include ghandi, but the mahatma always struck me as a reasonable guy...go figure...frederick denison

[chad14]

i am a CHRISTIAN i have accepted JESUS CHRIST into my heart and im saved JESUS is the ONLY WAY

[dodge]

Hi Joe. You wrote that in the various denominations there are those who fear “going against the absurdities that have been handed down to them,” and “believe incoherent babblings,” and “childish beliefs.” Then you say that “the Lord blessed you with a knowledge of scripture” that other people don’t have; and that “one day you’re going to tell me why Satan was created.” I’m looking forward to your explanation.

You also mentioned that there was a “coup that was forming against God,” and talked about “taking the guy out.” Could you elaborate? Who is this guy that needs to be “taken out?”

Since we’re sharing with each other what our beliefs are, I have to say that in my studied opinion based on careful consideration over many decades there is no Satan. My perspective is that Satan is a symbolic representation of all that we refuse or cannot admit in ourselves; so what Christians have done collectively is create an image that they can point to as being responsible for all the things they see around them that they consider “evil,” instead of looking into themselves.

As long as we project darkness and what we call evil onto an outside image, there is no hope of achieving wholeness and balance. The separation between light and darkness, Christ and Satan, Ahura Mazda and Ahriman, good and bad, liberals and conservatives, Christians and non-Christians, black and white, has created conflict and division. Instead of pointing to something outside of ourselves as the cause of evil, I would suggest we look within and attempt to integrate the opposing sides of our own very human nature. This is the answer to universal and personal peace…in my opinion.

I hope that you will in time be able to project a balanced, peaceful, and loving hologram around your center of consciousness, Joe; because you create your own reality through your desires and beliefs. I have found this to be true in my life. You get back what you put out, you reap what you sow.

[joe]

Hi Joe. You wrote that in the various denominations there are those who fear “going against the absurdities that have been handed down to them,” and “believe incoherent babblings,” and “childish beliefs.” Then you say that “the Lord blessed you with a knowledge of scripture” that other people don’t have; and that “one day you’re going to tell me why Satan was created.” I’m looking forward to your explanation.

You also mentioned that there was a “coup that was forming against God,” and talked about “taking the guy out.” Could you elaborate? Who is this guy that needs to be “taken out?”

Since we’re sharing with each other what our beliefs are, I have to say that in my studied opinion based on careful consideration over many decades there is no Satan. My perspective is that Satan is a symbolic representation of all that we refuse or cannot admit in ourselves; so what Christians have done collectively is create an image that they can point to as being responsible for all the things they see around them that they consider “evil,” instead of looking into themselves.

As long as we project darkness and what we call evil onto an outside image, there is no hope of achieving wholeness and balance. The separation between light and darkness, Christ and Satan, Ahura Mazda and Ahriman, good and bad, liberals and conservatives, Christians and non-Christians, black and white, has created conflict and division. Instead of pointing to something outside of ourselves as the cause of evil, I would suggest we look within and attempt to integrate the opposing sides of our own very human nature. This is the answer to universal and personal peace…in my opinion.

I hope that you will in time be able to project a balanced, peaceful, and loving hologram around your center of consciousness, Joe; because you create your own reality through your desires and beliefs. I have found this to be true in my life. You get back what you put out, you reap what you sow.

Coup against God was in reference to the so called rebellion that got Satan thrown out.
Please read my post again.

[dodge]

Hi Joe. You said that “some day” you were going to tell me why Satan was created; but left me some sort of “hint” concerning Paul and what he said about “turning a man over to Satan so that he may learn.” I assume you’re talking about 1 Timothy 1:20, where it says that Hymenaeus of Ephesus, an opponent of Paul, was delivered unto Satan so that he might learn not to blaspheme. It has something to do with Hymenaeus saying that the resurrection had already happened, and that it meant that the soul awakens from sin. From what I understand, Hymenaeus taught some form of Gnosticism and the essential evil nature of the human body.

What is your interpretation, since you believe that you see more deeply into scripture than most, of being “delivered unto Satan so that he might learn not to blaspheme?” Is it some form of excommunication, an infliction of some suffering or disease, being cut off from Christian “privileges,” or is it just to be taught a lesson?

I’m looking forward to reading what you have to say, as someone who believes himself to be blessed by the spirit in understanding the true meaning of scripture.

[chad14]

when one say i know everything i mark them off as ignorant

[turtle]

Dodge changing your post is not becoming of you.

[chad14]

sonce GOD had only ONE BEGOTTEN SON that is JESUS
the angels are referred to as sons of GOD but they were never begotten

[dodge]

Hi Turtle. Let me quote myself in that post you’re talking about: “Metaphorically-speaking, Christ and Satan are brothers who were separated at birth…” I didn’t change anything in that post after writing it, you obviously are doing what you do…seeing only what you want to see and disregarding the rest. Whether some people believe that Satan and Christ are brothers or not, I was talking metaphorically as I clearly stated. When someone changes their post, as you did in your last one, there is an indication of that on the bottom. You edited what you wrote at 10:18 AM this morning, as it clearly indicates. If you look at my post that you’re pointing at, saying I changed it, you will see nothing on the bottom to indicate that I did. Therefore, you are wrong. What I wrote at 7:54 PM on the 20th was never changed in any way. Understand? You’re the one who’s playing mind games, Turtle; as is obvious to anyone…with any intelligence.

Let me change this post to show you what I mean. There, you will see what time and date I edited this...unlike the post that you pointed to and said I "changed" it.