Excorcism or Deliverance

[shadowcat]

Another example of human sacrifice to God. Those that believed differently than they were to be put to death and sacrificed to God.

“If you hear in one of your cities, which the Lord your God is giving you to dwell there, that certain worthless fellows have gone out among you and have drawn away the inhabitants of their city, saying, ‘Let us go and serve other gods,’ which you have not known, then you shall inquire and make search and ask diligently. And behold, if it be true and certain that such an abomination has been done among you, you shall surely put the inhabitants of that city to the sword, devoting it to destruction, all who are in it and its cattle, with the edge of the sword. You shall gather all its spoil into the midst of its open square and burn the city and all its spoil with fire, as a whole burnt offering to the Lord your God. It shall be a heap forever. It shall not be built again. None of the devoted things shall stick to your hand, that the Lord may turn from the fierceness of his anger and show you mercy and have compassion on you and multiply you, as he swore to your fathers, if you obey the voice of the Lord your God, keeping all his commandments that I am commanding you today, and doing what is right in the sight of the Lord your God.

Deuteronomy 13:12-18

[stage director]

What is the difference between what you refer to the "bribery concept" of offering up a sacrifice to get something in return and the offering of a sacrifice to God in return for winning a war such as Jephthah did when he sacrificed his own daughter to God?

Jephthah never offered to sacrifice his daughter. He swore an oath that he would sacifice whatsoever (not whosoever) met him upon his return, and it was his beloved daughter and only child. His reaction?

Jdg 11:36
36 "And it came to pass, when he saw her, that he rent his clothes, and said, Alas, my daughter! thou hast brought me very low, and thou art one of them that trouble me: for I have opened my mouth unto the LORD, and I cannot go back."

Btw, scholars cannot even agree as to whether the sacrifice would have taken place, because sacrifice of one's children is strictly forbidden by God.

[stage director]

Another example of human sacrifice to God. Those that believed differently than they were to be put to death and sacrificed to God.

“If you hear in one of your cities, which the Lord your God is giving you to dwell there, that certain worthless fellows have gone out among you and have drawn away the inhabitants of their city, saying, ‘Let us go and serve other gods,’ which you have not known, then you shall inquire and make search and ask diligently. And behold, if it be true and certain that such an abomination has been done among you, you shall surely put the inhabitants of that city to the sword, devoting it to destruction, all who are in it and its cattle, with the edge of the sword. You shall gather all its spoil into the midst of its open square and burn the city and all its spoil with fire, as a whole burnt offering to the Lord your God. It shall be a heap forever. It shall not be built again. None of the devoted things shall stick to your hand, that the Lord may turn from the fierceness of his anger and show you mercy and have compassion on you and multiply you, as he swore to your fathers, if you obey the voice of the Lord your God, keeping all his commandments that I am commanding you today, and doing what is right in the sight of the Lord your God.

Deuteronomy 13:12-18

You're completely misreading it. It was a threat of what should occur (death by sword, NOT sacrifice) if the godless deliberately sought them out to turn them away from God, and they complied. It's not a matter of intolerance to other beliefs. It's about them serving other gods.

Here it is in plain English:

Deu 13:12-16
12 "When you begin living in the towns the LORD your God is giving you, you may hear
13 that scoundrels among you are leading their fellow citizens astray by saying, 'Let us go worship other gods'—gods you have not known before.
14 In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find that the report is true and such a detestable act has been committed among you,
15 you must attack that town and completely destroy [fn] all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock.
16 Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the open square and burn it. Burn the entire town as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt.

Here's the reason:

Deu 13:11
11 Then all Israel will hear about it and be afraid, and no one will act so wickedly again.

[Sammael]

I was going to let this go, but decided to address this for the final time.

On the accusation of being childish for my comments by dodge. You say this yet have posted a video called F*ck Christmas. Irony indeed.

Videos. Which videos would you be talking about? Constant Motion from Dream Theater? Roswell 47 studio video from Hypocrisy? Shut Your Mouth from Pain? Memory serves me right, you were the one posting most of the videos and only one of them was truly violent in nature and that was Amon Amarth, even though I think even with their video it was a stretch. Because THe Immortal videos weren't. They were all in Norwegian Mountainside for a natural environment. So really what is the problem. Like any of this hasn't been done before. By famous 60's and 70's rock musicians such as Alice Cooper, Black Sabbath, and Pink Floyd.

Your constant asking me of why I like it and what I get from the music. Already been answered. Go look for it. If I get asked again, I will take this as a blatant ignoring of what I already said in this subject and your question will be ignored in turn.

So enough with your accusing when your guilty of the same sh*t.

This is the last time I will address any of the above again.

[Sammael]

You're completely misreading it. It was a threat of what should occur (death by sword, NOT sacrifice) if the godless deliberately sought them out to turn them away from God, and they complied. It's not a matter of intolerance to other beliefs. It's about them serving other gods.

Here it is in plain English:

Deu 13:12-16
12 "When you begin living in the towns the LORD your God is giving you, you may hear
13 that scoundrels among you are leading their fellow citizens astray by saying, 'Let us go worship other gods'—gods you have not known before.
14 In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find that the report is true and such a detestable act has been committed among you,
15 you must attack that town and completely destroy [fn] all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock.
16 Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the open square and burn it. Burn the entire town as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt.

Here's the reason:

Deu 13:11
11 Then all Israel will hear about it and be afraid, and no one will act so wickedly again.

There is no misunderstanding here. If they are being intolerant of the other gods that different people worshipped, they are being intolerant of their beliefs. Because the different gods are apart of the beliefs. It is intolerant to the core. Just like whatever god the Israelites worshipped in the old testament are a part of their beliefs. You can't possibly seperate the two. It is right there in verses to. Burnt offerings to their so called god. Demanding a sacrifice by killing all who drove them away and burn the offering to their god. In reality this is nothing more than an example of how self indulgent this act was. It lacks any self accountability and resposibility for their own lack of faith. If they were truly faithful they would have never gone astray in the first place. This proves how errant the old testament is because it is loaded with selfishness and greed killing for their own screw ups.

This level of intolerance is the same as what you accuse your favorite target, islam. Just like they kill the infidel for religous intolerance, the jews did the same thing. Yet it will never ever come up because it comes from a biased point of view. The simple truth is one person's belief in god/or gods is another persons paganistic act. Its been this way from the beginning and will always be this way. Acts of intolerance will never change this, because no matter who does it it is still an act of terrorism to spread their own fear campaign.

[easeltine]

With the same zeal a Christian Church needS to excommunicate all the members that listen to Death and Black Metal. Anyone that listens to people that say that they worship Satan, hate God, hate Churches, practice "dark/black" magic, state that they hate Christianity, preach and burn churches, sing about murder and practice murdering their friends, sing about burning boyfriends, needs to be excommunicated or banished from the congregation and fellowship unless they repent of their sin. If the member is already practicing the hate of the preachers of Black Metal their hearts are reprobate, and they will refuse to repent.
Only a FOOLISH Seeker Friendly Fake “Christian” Church would allow their members to participate with preachers that teach to destroy Christianity. Anybody refusing to repent of blatant sin of listening to people worshipping Satan needs to be excommunicated. There is no room in Christianity to be STUPID TOLERANT when one considers these evils.
STUPID is considering these type of people as your friends.

[dodge]

Sammael, thanks for pointing out that great Christmas song by Eric Idle. It’s one of my favorites. (Warning, the video contains adult language, so listen to it at your own risk).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1H2mrV6vSPY

By the way, I don’t know if I’ve asked you before, but what do you get from listening to death metal music?

[dodge]

Hi Easeltine. That’s a great idea! Anyone who listens to a certain type of music that you don’t like should be excommunicated. I would, however, take that a step further. They should be stoned to death in the church parking lot along with witches, homosexuals, children who curse their parents, adulterers, and especially those who give their seed unto Molech as is commanded in the Bible.

[chad14]

who is this man you all keep talking about

[easeltine]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_Heard..._Christmas_Day

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M7670CXvPX0

And in despair I bowed my head:
'There is no peace on earth, ' I said
'For hate is strong, and mocks the song
Of peace on earth, good will to men.'


I heard the bells on Christmas day

Their old familiar carols play,
And wild and sweet the words repeat
Of peace on earth, good will to men.

I thought how, as the day had come,
The belfries of all Christendom
Had rolled along th'unbroken song
Of peace on earth, good will to men.

And in despair I bowed my head:
'There is no peace on earth, ' I said
'For hate is strong, and mocks the song
Of peace on earth, good will to men.'

Then pealed the bells more loud and deep:
'God is not dead, nor doth He sleep;
The wrong shall fail, the right prevail,
With peace on earth, good will to men.'

Till, ringing, singing on its way,
The world revolved from night to day
A voice, a chime, a chant sublime,
Of peace on earth, good will to men.


Henry Wadsworth Longfellow

[dodge]

Happy Solstice

As we battle our way through the line at the store
And think to ourselves “there has got to be more”
And wonder where “Christmas of long ago” went,
When the meaning of Christmas was what it first meant…
It was “borrowed” by Christians from heathens, of course—
From Greeks and from Romans, from Celtics and Norse—
Why, Christmas is pagan, from yule-log to tree
To mistletoe waiting for you and for me
The meaning of Christmas—the good stuff, at least—
The ornaments, stockings, and “rare roast beast”
Has nothing to do with a Son of God’s birth
But rather the changing of seasons on Earth
The nights now grow shorter, the days will grow longer,
The rays of the sun (and our spirits) grow stronger!
So celebrate Solstice, rejoice in the season,
And love one another whatever the reason!

(Anonymous)

[shadowcat]

In popular folklore Befana the Christmas Witch visits all the children of Italy on the eve of the Feast of the Epiphany to fill their socks with candy and presents if they are good or a lump of coal or dark candy if they are bad. Being a good housekeeper, many say she will sweep the floor before she leaves. The child's family typically leaves a small glass of wine and a plate with a few morsels of food, often regional or local, for the Befana.

[shadowcat]

[stage director]

There is no misunderstanding here. If they are being intolerant of the other gods that different people worshipped, they are being intolerant of their beliefs.

Ok, you are aware that's exactly the way God operates, right? Totally exclusive. He's not at all tolerant of other beliefs, nor do I imagine he's concerned that someone might be offended because their "god" doesn't get equal time. When one becomes a Christian they're agreeing to those terms. One God.

Exd 23:13
13 And in all [things] that I have said unto you be circumspect: and make no mention of the name of other gods, neither let it be heard out of thy mouth.

[Sammael]

What does that have to do with what I posted?i It does not excuse anything. It isn't about equal time for other gods. Its about respecting other cultures. A concept that is void in all organized religion. It all becomes a big game to figure out whose God is better. So its thrown in the fire because the only thing being shown is peoples selfish desire to pass the Buck. If god is god, he would be above beastly human desire.

That being said the Israelites were nothing more than self sering hypocrite who used God to justify their genocidal behavior.

[shadowcat]

Exactly sam, I agree. God does not force people to worship him. What sort of satisfaction would God get out of having to force people to love and worship him? Worship me or death!! What sort of God demands a blood sacrifice, yes by sword and burnt offerings of human beings? This is probably where I disagree with the majority. These killings and sacrifices and wars were all done in God's name but I do not think that God actually required these things. That book was written by men for men. Not only that it has been used countless times to justify mass murder of other cultures i.e. the Native Americans of both North and South America, as well as many other cultures. It has been used to justify inquisitions, yes of the Jews, Muslims, and various other peoples throughout history. They forced people to worship God just as they did in the OT and this is how God works?

This is no different than Islam wanting to kill the infidels, the great satan.

I guess we will just have to agree to disagree on this one because there is no way in hell I believe this crapola. And this is why so many of the peoples of Europe are against the church and are either aethist or choose other faiths.

[dodge]

Sammael wrote “…the Israelites were nothing more than self-serving hypocrites who used God to justify their genocidal behavior.” His wife, Shadowcat, agrees.

I wonder what Jews would say about that, since their Torah traces Israelites back to the patriarch Jacob, grandson of Abraham? Saying that these “chosen people of God” were hypocrites and mass murderers would seem to border on ethnic hatred. Isn’t that just as inappropriate as saying that Jews are Satan’s Children?

[turtle]

Jephthah never offered to sacrifice his daughter. He swore an oath that he would sacifice whatsoever (not whosoever) met him upon his return, and it was his beloved daughter and only child. His reaction?

Jdg 11:36
36 "And it came to pass, when he saw her, that he rent his clothes, and said, Alas, my daughter! thou hast brought me very low, and thou art one of them that trouble me: for I have opened my mouth unto the LORD, and I cannot go back."

Btw, scholars cannot even agree as to whether the sacrifice would have taken place, because sacrifice of one's children is strictly forbidden by God.

Is this a political decision or a spiritual decision.

Judges 11:27-40 KJV
(27) Wherefore I have not sinned against thee, but thou doest me wrong to war against me: the LORD the Judge be judge this day between the children of Israel and the children of Ammon.
(28) Howbeit the king of the children of Ammon hearkened not unto the words of Jephthah which he sent him.
(29) Then the Spirit of the LORD came upon Jephthah, and he passed over Gilead, and Manasseh, and passed over Mizpeh of Gilead, and from Mizpeh of Gilead he passed over unto the children of Ammon.
(30) And Jephthah vowed a vow unto the LORD, and said, If thou shalt without fail deliver the children of Ammon into mine hands,
(31) Then it shall be, that whatsoever cometh forth of the doors of my house to meet me, when I return in peace from the children of Ammon, shall surely be the LORD'S, and I will offer it up for a burnt offering.
(32) So Jephthah passed over unto the children of Ammon to fight against them; and the LORD delivered them into his hands.
(33) And he smote them from Aroer, even till thou come to Minnith, even twenty cities, and unto the plain of the vineyards, with a very great slaughter. Thus the children of Ammon were subdued before the children of Israel.
(34) And Jephthah came to Mizpeh unto his house, and, behold, his daughter came out to meet him with timbrels and with dances: and she was his only child; beside her he had neither son nor daughter.
(35) And it came to pass, when he saw her, that he rent his clothes, and said, Alas, my daughter! thou hast brought me very low, and thou art one of them that trouble me: for I have opened my mouth unto the LORD, and I cannot go back.
(36) And she said unto him, My father, if thou hast opened thy mouth unto the LORD, do to me according to that which hath proceeded out of thy mouth; forasmuch as the LORD hath taken vengeance for thee of thine enemies, even of the children of Ammon.
(37) And she said unto her father, Let this thing be done for me: let me alone two months, that I may go up and down upon the mountains, and bewail my virginity, I and my fellows.
(38) And he said, Go. And he sent her away for two months: and she went with her companions, and bewailed her virginity upon the mountains.
(39) And it came to pass at the end of two months, that she returned unto her father, who did with her according to his vow which he had vowed: and she knew no man. And it was a custom in Israel,
(40) That the daughters of Israel went yearly to lament the daughter of Jephthah the Gileadite four days in a year.


This was a political decision, for he done in publicly this oath to kill whoever appeared first. Yet it was a sinful oath to God. Yet it was law that He had to do whatever He swore he would do. Decision right or wrong because it was before people he could not take his word back. Was it a foolish one perhaps. Would God had forgiven not holding to His word. I believe yes considering it should of brought Japhethah to repentance but it did not and for this reason Japhethah only lived six years in power. His power was short lived. Does man make bad choices, yes from all walks of life. foolish decision perhaps, but maybe a necessary one for him to gain power. Was power more important to Japhethah yes. This is a bad leader. However some decisions are good for certain people. See if a person is bring so much hurt to a group of people like a church, then perhaps it better to walk away. If you become no value to a situation it is sometimes necessary to walk away. Not necessarily true, sometime staying is better.

[dodge]

What possible use is that story of Jephthah’s sacrifice of his daughter as a burnt offering? What’s the point of even bringing it up? A daughter came out of the door of her house, and because of that she had to be burnt alive because her father swore an oath that this is what he would do? It’s not only insane but pointless. You biblically-immersed people are very odd.

[turtle]

What possible use is that story of Jephthah’s sacrifice of his daughter as a burnt offering? What’s the point of even bringing it up? A daughter came out of the door of her house, and because of that she had to be burnt alive because her father swore an oath that this is what he would do? It’s not only insane but pointless. You biblically-immersed people are very odd.

Dodge kids are sold everyday in abuse situations. This is a form of abuse. Let say you some drug pimp. You got a little girl and you got lusty hungry oath. What happens. Pimp promised this guy without knowing what he is to his daughter. Point is it tells that these things have been happening since the dawn of time. Girl don't do what her pimp daddy says and eventually she is dead, because she no value. Japhetheh seen his daughter as no value, though he did grant her one last request before she is killed, she is still consider no value. Many people think that bad things that happen can be stopped. However why did God not interfere here. It was not about God, though God is used. God is used in many situations that is not God. Abuse that man claims is God is from the beginning of time. It is a reminder of these facts that not all that say Lord Lord is of God.

Let me explain if you feel abuse is only happening to one's self that is a lie. It happened, and God does not always intervene. Why maybe to show the problem is even in our own backdoor, not just in our neighbors. We need ot clean our backdoor up first before our neighbors, however when money involved the neighbor yard always gets cleaned first. Evil is everywhere and unless men and woman stand up to it, it will get worse. Why did not the men that were with him call him on his mistake.