Why I think SC doctrine is racist/anti-semite

[Kestrel]

Just dropping by to wish all and I do mean all a Merry Christmas!!!

Might drop back later after everyone else has expressed why they

believe Arnold Murray and Shepherds Chapel dogma are racist and

antisemitic. I know that he and it all is. Merry Christmas everyone!

---

Hey Franklin,

As a viewer of SC, did you call me a racist also? Your comparison is neither a simile or a metaphor. Your rhetoric could be noted by Admin as hostile and provocative.

But this is what we have come to expect from your posts, and why change just for the Holidays?

I realize some children have a more difficult time in the sand box than others regardless of the time of year.

Perhaps the Season hasn't had a chance to do it's magic on that Grinch-like spirit.

But a Merry Christmas in return, Franklin!


PS. May I suggest you make the following New Year's resolution. It goes something like this: "I will not get banned, I will not get banned, I will not get banned......"

Now it's really Merry!

[smyrna]

Great posts as always Kestrel. Let me say I agree with your presentation, though I can't help feeling like a chess piece when reading it. But I should expect that, because it's merely a "nuts and bolts" presentation it may be the shrotes encapsulation of God's plan I've ever read. That can be good or bad.

Long ago Kestrel, deflecting and proving in erro charges made by SC detractors became an exercise in entertainment. And that is their fault, sicne they ignore anythig that shows they are wrong.

I have heard Murray say the wrod Adam means "ruddy complected, to show blood in the face" but at the same time, I've heard him say no oe is sure what Adam and Eve looked like, speaking to the actual skin tone. But looking aorund I don't see any Jews in Hasidic garb at the wailing wall, I went to a public school in Chicago which was about 85% Jewish kids, they were all white, very white.

I am sure that in the Middle East under a blazing sun they could get very tan, but other than the Black Israelites which the white Jews do not recoginze as being blood descendants of Abraham and those of other races that have adopted
Judaism as a religion, all that profess being desacdnas of Abraham are white.

Now you also brought up a very important points, one the detractors totally ignore: God himself set apart the Jews and called them special. Detractors skip over the verses from Deuternomy because it throws a monkey wrench in their so-called reasoning.

I haven't gone back to the Finally, a Rational.... thread this morninbg, but I'd be willing to bet not one question I have put to the detractors in this so-called debate we are supposed to be having has been answered. And mind you, it's the second time most of them have been asked. I pulled them form a couple of posts because no one had answered them, to make them easier to see and address.

That's why I called two of my posts there: "Welocme to the non-debate." I knew they couldn't do it, here in this thread we were treated to speculation that I would turn this into a flame war and actually accused of doing so, whch thankfully josh disagreed with that charge.

But back to topic, the ball is in their court, if they choose to ignore it, they do so at the peril of losing this "debate."

[Josh2]

Kestrel, the post by Franklin says that he “knows” that “Arnold Murray and Shepherds Chapel dogma are racist and anti-Semitic.” I would agree that his dropping by to say this without providing an explanation by way of proof is somewhat “hostile and provocative;” but it doesn’t violate any forum rules. It would be up to him to return and offer evidence to back up his claim.

[smyrna]

Kestrel, the post by Franklin says that he “knows” that “Arnold Murray and Shepherds Chapel dogma are racist and anti-Semitic.” I would agree that his dropping by to say this without providing an explanation by way of proof is somewhat “hostile and provocative;” but it doesn’t violate any forum rules. It would be up to him to return and offer evidence to back up his claim.

A long time ago Franklin became a "drive by" poster. He shoots, then leaves so he doesn't have to face questions about his opinions. He won't allow himself to be bothered by such questions as why the top organizations dedicated to exposing hate groups don't even mention the SC in their published lists of hate groups.

The SPLC is notorious for trumping and hyping up benign organizations in order to label them hate groups, yet still don't list the SC among them. The ADL even has a list of "notable" Christian Identity ministries and ministers, and they only list obscure or dead ones. You'd think if they were of the opinion Murray was a CI guy, he'd be at the top of the list, due to his media saturated presence.

[stage director]

PM HAS NEVER COMMENTED THAT "ONLY WHITE PEOPLE BLUSH". Listen more carefully next time.

Learn about your teacher.

Shepherd's Bible, Appendix III by Arnold Murray
It was Mark Twain who said roughly, Man is the only being that blushes, or has a need to. Now this tongue-in-cheek remark has a great deal of truth in it, but it must be noted that it can only apply to Adamic man, or the Caucasian race. It is obvious the other races cannot physically blush. The word Adam means ruddy complexion, and he was the first Caucasian.

[smyrna]

Learn about your teacher.

Shepherd's Bible, Appendix III by Arnold Murray
It was Mark Twain who said roughly, Man is the only being that blushes, or has a need to. Now this tongue-in-cheek remark has a great deal of truth in it, but it must be noted that it can only apply to Adamic man, or the Caucasian race. It is obvious the other races cannot physically blush. The word Adam means ruddy complexion, and he was the first Caucasian.

The danger in quoting from a book Murray authored which is out of print, no longer offered by the Chapel is that Murray has updated what he teaches. It is probably obvious to those looking around them that very dark back people don't blush, but obviously Asians do, as do browns, ie. Hispanics.

However, stating such a belief is not in and of itself racist, it in no way promotes hate nor advocates racial supremacy, anymore than God does in His words in Deuteronomy and elsewhere.

I still don't see any blacks or other non-white race in Hasidic garb at the Waling Wall. I do see there are black Ethiopian
Jews, however it is apparent the majority of Jews don't recognize them as literal descendants of Abraham.

This is an issue you probably should take up with them, they believe, apparently as Murray does, the descendants of Adam were Caucasian.

Due to these observations, IMO there is no racism involved in making such a statement.

[smyrna]

Stage Director it seems to me that since you have all this "proof' that Murray is a racist and antisemitic (not to mention your other charges that he keeps money from the ministry for himself and was once tried for "fraud")and preaches racism in his ministry, (and this of course would indict both the whites and non-whites that watch the program, attend the Church, and even work in the bookshop at the Chapel), you'd have been able to persuade some media outlet to do an expose' on the SC.

I mean after all, I just saw one on TV about Fred Phelp's Westboro Baptist Church, who protests at soldier's funerals and runs a website called godhatesfags.com or .org

With the number of media outlets out there, it is puzzling that in all the years you've been doing this, you only persuaded a sole reporter who did the article for the SPLC on the Chapel, and it wasn't even good enough to convince the SPLC the SC was a hate group.

Perhaps you'd like to comment on the reasons you find such indifference or maybe let us know what steps you have taken to make your case with these media outlets. And if you haven't taken any steps, why not?

You haven't done any freelance articles for pulp publications? No website of your own other than the mostly defunct
"Pigtree Cafe"?

It truly puzzles me that you have stuck mainly to this forum and CBRC.

[fatherofaking]

It seems to me that Smyrna has been caught with nothing to do but grasp at straws.
If the Bible is taken literally God is the worst hate group there is, so you can't use that one Smyrna without an explanation.
It seems your teacher and your God can be interpreted as being racist.

Also, i don't see anything posted that Stage Director or anyone else has to convince any media outlet that AM is racist in order to prove that his teaching is racist.

I don't see Smyrna coming up with any proof that AM has updated this teaching which could be interpreted as racist.
So it seems as if Smyrna has agreed that this statement that SD has provided is problematic by stating that AM has a need to update his teaching.
AM was apparently making statements that could be interpreted as racist and now he has updated these statements to say what?
Where is the proof that he is no longer making these types of statements?

The response to this should be interesting.
I am supposedly on ignore.
I would really appreciate it if you would respond to this post SD.
Lets see if we can get Smyrna to admit that he reads my posts.

[stage director]

Arnold Murray: Shepherd's Bible, Revelation Chapter 21

10. And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heav­en from God,

#What is this city? We will find out what the exact name of this holy new Jerusalem is. The name actually describes the city better than all the measurements or credentials that could be given it. Ezekiel 48:35 tells us that the name of the city of Jerusa­lem is “The Lord is there”.

(skip to verse 16)

16. And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal.
#Twelve thousand furlongs is 1500 miles. The holy city is presented to us as a perfect cube of 1500 miles.

(skip to verse 22)

22. And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.

23. And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.

# Isaiah 60:19-20 gives a good rendering of this. The children of the night or darkness, have been done away with.

24. And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.

# The kings referred to in this verse are just that, the kings of the earth. This is not talking about our King. Remember, the word “nations” means “ethnos”, which is various ethnic groups. There will be kingdoms of them outside the 1500 miles and they will live in the light of it. Those that come by salvation, that are saved out of the races after the second death, will live under their own kings. This is wonderful. They will live under their own perfect kings, and in their own realms. Yet, they will draw from the same God, Yahveh.

In other words, black and other non-caucasian folks in heaven will not be a part of Holy Jerusalem, but will be segregated into their own realms.

[stage director]

Exactly, FoaK. Has Murray ever renounced any of these comments? Said he was wrong? On the contrary, he makes it a point to state that he does not apologize for what he teaches.

[stage director]

Btw, I use to listen to Murray's tv program on a regular basis. And I'm not talking twenty years ago. Except for no longer claiming that Christ would return in 1981, it has not changed.

[Kestrel]

Great posts as always Kestrel. Let me say I agree with your presentation, though I can't help feeling like a chess piece when reading it. But I should expect that, because it's merely a "nuts and bolts" presentation it may be the shrotes encapsulation of God's plan I've ever read. That can be good or bad.

____________________________________________

It's a mixed blessing, of sorts, Smyrna.

I have the time to post at night, but then the day has had a chance to take a chunk out of me by then. LOL!!!

When in doubt, a good chef makes sure to stir the pot before something sticks to the bottom. Okay, I'll stop..........

Reading the following part of the mission statement for this thread,

This thread is not for dicussion of the Trinity, the Rapture, Modelism, Hell, or the Millennium except for how it might pertain to race/ethnicity. If you can't discuss without flaming and/or contempt, please stay the heck off my thread.

one might believe that the topics are too difficult to debate along with others. Narrowing the focus of the debate from the very start is contrary to actually allowing the discussion to correctly navigate in order of importance.

StageDirector is inclined to frame the debate however it best qualifies her position: and a great move it is from her vantage!

But that's why we (also) have a thread where an open ended discussion can occur, while staying on topic all the while.

Just my "hit and run" before the day calls.

Smyrna, exceptional job as of late. Keep that spirit flowing.!!

Until Later

[stage director]

It seems to me that Smyrna has been caught with nothing to do but grasp at straws.
If the Bible is taken literally God is the worst hate group there is, so you can't use that one Smyrna without an explanation.
It seems your teacher and your God can be interpreted as being racist.

Also, i don't see anything posted that Stage Director or anyone else has to convince any media outlet that AM is racist in order to prove that his teaching is racist.

I don't see Smyrna coming up with any proof that AM has updated this teaching which could be interpreted as racist.
So it seems as if Smyrna has agreed that this statement that SD has provided is problematic by stating that AM has a need to update his teaching.
AM was apparently making statements that could be interpreted as racist and now he has updated these statements to say what?
Where is the proof that he is no longer making these types of statements?

The response to this should be interesting.
I am supposedly on ignore.
I would really appreciate it if you would respond to this post SD.
Lets see if we can get Smyrna to admit that he reads my posts.

Those orgs didn't post disclaimers against James Von Brunn, either, despite his long time racist ramblings, affiliations, and popular website. Are we to suppose that because the ADL didn't do a piece on him he can't possibly be an anti-semite?

[fatherofaking]

____________________________________________

But that's why we (also) have a thread where an open ended discussion can occur, while staying on topic all the while.

Just my "hit and run" before the day calls.

Until Later

An open ended discussion is part of what we in America call education.
Without the free flow of ideas it is called a dictatorship.

[smyrna]

Btw, I use to listen to Murray's tv program on a regular basis. And I'm not talking twenty years ago. Except for no longer claiming that Christ would return in 1981, it has not changed.

Well, if you can prove this, then this supports my argument and you should have no problem convincing major media outlets of this big scoop of yours, as well as the SPLC, ADL, etc.

But you haven't. So you have been sitting on all these explosive revelations and simply letting them dribble out on one or two websites on the Internet?

Sure seems like a huge waste of time and really makes me wonder how serious you are about your agenda. Maybe you just like to argue like the other guy that pops in here every once and a while?

[fatherofaking]

Those orgs didn't post disclaimers against James Von Brunn, either, despite his long time racist ramblings, affiliations, and popular website. Are we to suppose that because the ADL didn't do a piece on him he can't possibly be an anti-semite?

A rhetorical question.

rhetorical question

NOUN:
A question to which no answer is expected, often used for rhetorical effect.
http://education.yahoo.com/reference...cal%20question

[smyrna]

Those orgs didn't post disclaimers against James Von Brunn, either, despite his long time racist ramblings, affiliations, and popular website. Are we to suppose that because the ADL didn't do a piece on him he can't possibly be an anti-semite?

Not evidence in and of itself, albeit a very strong point. However, let's look at all the Internet flow of charges that get passed from site to site which isn't even true about the SC and Murray. The ADL I am sure, hasn't missed any of it, and I'm sure a fair number of people, including myself, have contacted the ADL about the SC. I didn't even receive a response.

I simply asked them if they agree with critics that the SC is antisemitic. This takes nothing away form my argument you've had many years to get the attention of the media. That isn't grasping at straws.

I have already stated my reasons and asked the question. If you are satisfied that the answer you gave is appropriate and answer the question as to why there has been no media coverage of this alleged hate group with a world wide TV exposure which has escaped any media scrutiny in over 20 years of broadcasting, then okay.

I've never even heard of James Von Brunn, he doesn't have his own channel on DirectTV, C-Band techs don't tune in their sattelite dishes to Brunn's TV telecast running 24/7 like Murray's, so if you want to claim no major media hasn't put the SC under a microscope, hey go for it.

[smyrna]

Let me note here I have FOAK on ignore, I cannot see his messages.

[stage director]

Reading the following part of the mission statement for this thread,
This thread is not for dicussion of the Trinity, the Rapture, Modelism, Hell, or the Millennium except for how it might pertain to race/ethnicity. If you can't discuss without flaming and/or contempt, please stay the heck off my thread.



one might believe that the topics are too difficult to debate along with others. Narrowing the focus of the debate from the very start is contrary to actually allowing the discussion to correctly navigate in order of importance.

StageDirector is inclined to frame the debate however it best qualifies her position: and a great move it is from her vantage!

But that's why we (also) have a thread where an open ended discussion can occur, while staying on topic all the while.

News flash.. I don't really care when threads go off topic. On cbrc I'm typically the biggest offender, objecting only if the OP takes offense. Josh has made it clear he doesn't want threads conducted in that way. I laid out a list because he may not be informed as to why all the subjects I named relate to each other, and I don't want that clouded by irrelevent postings.

[stage director]

It's like this, Smyrna.. Document and prove that Murray teaches a whole 'nother set of doctrines from what I've presented. You've been calling me a liar for five years now, but you've failed to offer any proof beyond your opinions of we messengers. I've posted dozens and dozens of transcripts, original documents and audios while you've posted denials, flames and quotes by unrelated rabbis.