Why I think SC doctrine is racist/anti-semite

[easeltine]

"But when this Antichrist shall have devastated all things in this world, he will reign for three years and six months and will sit in the temple at Jerusalem; and then the Lord will come from heaven in the clouds, in the glory of the Father, sending this man and those who follow him into the lake of fire" (ibid., 5:30:4).

So, Irenaeus was Mid-Trib?

[turtle]

Easeltine why are you quoting Mormon Bible?

[shadowcat]

Turtle that wasn't the Mormon Bible, that was a quote from Against Heresies by St Irenaeus. It was the opinion of many of the early Christians that the Jewish people would be the vast majority of those thrown into this lake of fire for their lack of belief. This is still the main mindset of modern Christianity. It's perplexing to say the least, Christian Zionism is all fine and dandy for returning the Jewish folks to their homeland but at the same time out comes the "believe or fry" mentality out of the other side of their mouths.

[turtle]

Okay let us take another shot out this. What if Moses wife was not black in color, however where she was from perhaps indicates she was. However when did race come about. When was there a noteable change of coloring not until time of Lamatations. However Moses wife was not of the Jewish line that was the problem. Making Moses and his wife a biracial couple. Was his wife a believer, I would think possibly yes. However maybe not. Scripture concurs nothing to this reguard.

[jeff_franklin]

Bumping this post back up to keep us from being sidetracked. satan loves it when Christians lose their focus on the greater evils to bicker among themselves about how many angels can fit on the point of a needle. Stay focused on the racism, antisemitism of Murray here folks.

All of that is 10 trillion miles away from what the (pseudo Christian) Identity preachers of hate: Ku Klux Klanmen: Wesley Swift, Thomas Robb, Neo Nazi Aryan Nations Richard Butler, and Shepherd Chapel Arnold Murray preach against the Jews, that they are the literal, blood, genetic descendants of Satan. And that all non German Gaelic (non Aryan, non Adamic) humans were created separately by God as inferior. lesser beings without God's spirit, not to be intermarried with but just to be led, taught and ruled by the superior Germanic / Gaelic ethnic groups (according to the racist Neo Nazi Identity preachers of hate). Sorry but there is no comparison between what Christianity teaches and what (pseudo Christian) Identity preaches. Identity including Arnold Murray is pure hatred, racism and antisemitism!

[turtle]

Let's examine some things that we know about Moses and His first wife.

Exodus 18:1-8 When Jethro, the priest of Midian, Moses' father in law, heard of all that God had done for Moses, and for Israel his people, and that the LORD had brought Israel out of Egypt; (2) Then Jethro, Moses' father in law, took Zipporah, Moses' wife, after he had sent her back, (3) And her two sons; of which the name of the one was Gershom; for he said, I have been an alien in a strange land: (4) And the name of the other was Eliezer; for the God of my father, said he, was mine help, and delivered me from the sword of Pharaoh: (5) And Jethro, Moses' father in law, came with his sons and his wife unto Moses into the wilderness, where he encamped at the mount of God: (6) And he said unto Moses, I thy father in law Jethro am come unto thee, and thy wife, and her two sons with her. (7) And Moses went out to meet his father in law, and did obeisance, and kissed him; and they asked each other of their welfare; and they came into the tent. (8) And Moses told his father in law all that the LORD had done unto Pharaoh and to the Egyptians for Israel's sake, and all the travail that had come upon them by the way, and how the LORD delivered them.


Perhaps Moses first wife was sent back because of the fact her father was a midian or maybe not, however, what we do know is her safety was an issue.

Exodus 4:19-26 And the LORD said unto Moses in Midian, Go, return into Egypt: for all the men are dead which sought thy life. (20) And Moses took his wife and his sons, and set them upon an ass, and he returned to the land of Egypt: and Moses took the rod of God in his hand. (21) And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go. (22) And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn: (23) And I say unto thee, Let my son go, that he may serve me: and if thou refuse to let him go, behold, I will slay thy son, even thy firstborn. (24) And it came to pass by the way in the inn, that the LORD met him, and sought to kill him. (25) Then Zipporah took a sharp stone, and cut off the foreskin of her son, and cast it at his feet, and said, Surely a bloody husband art thou to me. (26) So he let him go: then she said, A bloody husband thou art, because of the circumcision.


Did she not fit in well with the people we do not know. However this was a divorcement by Moses and He had a second wife after he sent his first wife back to her father. Realize Moses history was both a leadership of non believers people and protecting God's people. He is the type of leader that became a believer in God either early age or later, but not all his habits were godly ones. He order the slaying of the people when they worshipped an idol. That sounds barbaric to the world. Yet the instructions and law was to worship one God. Moses lived all his life before taking Israel from egypt with people that were not necessarily believers in God. How he could kill because of worship of idol means he obey the law that been established by God by enforcing it the way the world would. God could of slayed them himself.

So what this second wife an issue. Yes to Miraim and her brother Arron why, because God spoke to his people and they were not to marry outside of their tribe a mandate as old as Abraham to his servant who went and got Isaac wife.


Numbers 12:1-16
(1) And Miriam and Aaron spake against Moses because of the Ethiopian woman whom he had married: for he had married an Ethiopian woman.
(2) And they said, Hath the LORD indeed spoken only by Moses? hath he not spoken also by us? And the LORD heard it.
(3) (Now the man Moses was very meek, above all the men which were upon the face of the earth.)
(4) And the LORD spake suddenly unto Moses, and unto Aaron, and unto Miriam, Come out ye three unto the tabernacle of the congregation. And they three came out.
(5) And the LORD came down in the pillar of the cloud, and stood in the door of the tabernacle, and called Aaron and Miriam: and they both came forth.
(6) And he said, Hear now my words: If there be a prophet among you, I the LORD will make myself known unto him in a vision, and will speak unto him in a dream.
(7) My servant Moses is not so, who is faithful in all mine house.
(8) With him will I speak mouth to mouth, even apparently, and not in dark speeches; and the similitude of the LORD shall he behold: wherefore then were ye not afraid to speak against my servant Moses?
(9) And the anger of the LORD was kindled against them; and he departed.
(10) And the cloud departed from off the tabernacle; and, behold, Miriam became leprous, white as snow: and Aaron looked upon Miriam, and, behold, she was leprous.
(11) And Aaron said unto Moses, Alas, my lord, I beseech thee, lay not the sin upon us, wherein we have done foolishly, and wherein we have sinned.
(12) Let her not be as one dead, of whom the flesh is half consumed when he cometh out of his mother's womb.
(13) And Moses cried unto the LORD, saying, Heal her now, O God, I beseech thee.
(14) And the LORD said unto Moses, If her father had but spit in her face, should she not be ashamed seven days? let her be shut out from the camp seven days, and after that let her be received in again.
(15) And Miriam was shut out from the camp seven days: and the people journeyed not till Miriam was brought in again.
(16) And afterward the people removed from Hazeroth, and pitched in the wilderness of Paran.


God rebuked Miram through curse of leprosy. Now was that a big enough warning. Why was not Aaron punished the same way.

[sgng123]

From Shadow:

sgng, just out of curiousity do you feel it is more racist and anti-semitic than any other Christian denomination?
Yes, but only because I have read more about SC than other denominations. I have also read some things about Pentacostal denominations that would curl your hair in regards to racism... So at the risk of sounding "evasive", I can't speak to things I don't know about.

Most Christians believe that the Jewish people are doomed in the end unless they accept Christ.

I would agree with that assertion, I consider this to be anti-semitic however... We're all doomed without Him.

Some have even stated the antichrist will be a Jewish man.
Yeah... not so sure about that... but also not surprised that Hagee would be one of this doctrine's proponents. I think we all learn or pick up different things in regards to eschatology through the years... This is not a theory I'm familiar with and certainly, I wholeheartedly disagree with.

[easeltine]

Shadowcat, "It was the opinion of many of the early Christians that the Jewish people would be the vast majority of those thrown into this lake of fire for their lack of belief."

Are you sure that is the way this is supposed to read?

[turtle]

shadowcat does the theory of a name besides Nazism, and so forth. Is the attitude about separation the issue among groups that are segregated the problem. Some segregation is fine just not complete segregation I have issue with. Meaning those that teach differently like religious should be segregated, however being a part of society in terms of interaction with different people is fine. For example nothing wrong with intermingling with people, home or social if same interested, like hobby or social issues. Nothing wrong with religious talk in different groups as long as individuals understand their views will not always be the same on some things.

Here the problem when we look at our religious leaders as being more then human. Christ was more then human. However religious leaders did not like him nor some of political leaders, but not all. Some loved it. Christ though He was Lord was heretic to the religious leaders and political leaders that disagreed with him.

[shadowcat]

Shadowcat, "It was the opinion of many of the early Christians that the Jewish people would be the vast majority of those thrown into this lake of fire for their lack of belief."

Are you sure that is the way this is supposed to read?

Yes, those are my words. The part that you just quoted was me saying that the majority of early Christians felt the antichrist would be Jewish, sitting in the Temple and the majority will worship him, and this still holds true today. That wasn't a quote from someone else.

You must have misunderstood my post. I was telling turtle that the quote you put up was an excerpt from the article I put up, which in turn was a quote from Against Heresies by St Irenaeus. The point of the article is that the notion that the Pope is the antichrist was a relatively newly invented theory at the time and that the earlier Christians, like St Irenaeus and others, believed that the antichrist would be Jewish. The logic behind this is that if he is coming to pretend to be Jesus, then naturally he must be Jewish because Jesus was Jewish. He will sit in the Temple in Jerusalem therefore the people will be fooled and follow him and be doomed. The majority of those people in Israel that will follow him, of course, are those that worship in the Temple. These would be the Jewish people.

The WOF article basically states that true Israel and the true seed of Abraham are only Christians whatever race or ethnicity they may be. The present and current remnant are only those that have or will accept Christ. In the article they state that there is no other plan for the Jewish people in the Middle East pertaining to end time prophecy. They are of the belief that the Jewish people are not the chosen people of God, the chosen are Christians. Those that do not accept Christ will be fooled and worship the antichrist who is of the devil/satan/the serpent therefore they are of the devil and doomed to hell or the lake of fire. Although they do not state that they are literal descendants through the devil and Eve, they still believe they are spiritually of the devil and the majority of the Jewish people are of the devil spiritually. The fact that they also believe anyone else that doesn't accept Christ is also in this category is neither here nor there. This does not negate the fact that they are of the belief that most of the Jewish people are doomed and are not of "natural Israel" because they do not believe in Christ.

My point is, this is the belief of most Christians whether they are of WOF denomination, or some other denomination. How on earth is this just accepted and overlooked by those that are against Murray? How in the world can one call Murray anti semitic but not see the anti semitism in the other forms of Christian doctrine?

Doesn't seem like a viable argument to call Murray a racist and anti semitic yet the beliefs of most of Christiandom is just as racist and anti semitic imo. Probably moreso. At least Murray calls this bad seed Kenites. Sure in a private unauthorized lecture to a handlful of older students he names the Jews as being these Kenites. But as you can see WOF has it pretty much out in the open online in an article about their belief that the majority of the Jewish people will follow the antichrist and that there is no end time agenda for Israel. All of the stuff I highlighted in purple IS from the article, those are not my words. Those are just points that I felt were important that stood out when I was reading it.

So what are your thoughts? Be honest here, do not try to skate around it as you did when I brought up the history of Amiee's denomination and Christian Identity being intertwined from day 1 with Wesley Swift (Murray's supposed teacher) being an opening act in her church.

[shadowcat]

shadowcat does the theory of a name besides Nazism, and so forth. Is the attitude about separation the issue among groups that are segregated the problem. Some segregation is fine just not complete segregation I have issue with. Meaning those that teach differently like religious should be segregated, however being a part of society in terms of interaction with different people is fine. For example nothing wrong with intermingling with people, home or social if same interested, like hobby or social issues. Nothing wrong with religious talk in different groups as long as individuals understand their views will not always be the same on some things.

Here the problem when we look at our religious leaders as being more then human. Christ was more then human. However religious leaders did not like him nor some of political leaders, but not all. Some loved it. Christ though He was Lord was heretic to the religious leaders and political leaders that disagreed with him.

I think that whenever you start seperating people in general you are going to run into prejudice. Christianity seperates itself from the "wordly", they make disntict lines between themselves and those that are of other beliefs or that are non believers.

Most religions do seperate themselves, Jewish folks, Muslim folks and definitely the Hindu and Buddhist and those of mystery school religions.

The difference is, these religions do not generally prosthelytize. I'm not saying they are 100% correct, far from it. I find a lot wrong with the philosophy in say....India and other countries pertaining to their belief in caste systems and the opression of women. I do not believe that anyone has the full truth. In other words I believe that there is truth in all religion but no one has exclusive rights to "truth".

[turtle]

Shadowcat you bring up an interesting point. in old testament other people of different faith are recognized in having faith in God almighty. King Abilemech was one but his country was pagan country. Abraham feared his own death travel through enough he told the government that Sarah was his sister and so she was, but she was more then just a sister, she was wife. God spoke to abilemech in a dream. Nebuchanezer is another one God spoke to but he was idolatar as well. However you get to the New testament and there is only one instance of recognition of worship to God of heaven. and that that was a stone on mars hill that said to the worship to the unknown God. Otherwise unless a person was demonaic there is no mention of understanding of who Jesus or God is concerning non believers. However Abram did do trade with abilemech and others that were not of His faith. No one that is not a believer can worship God.


Most christians I knew growing up when I was little were evangelicistic in style. It is a shame when Christians feel they can no longer do so freely, I am sure many do not feel that way. However you have to be creative. I am not crazy about the parroting evangelical style. Something not natural. Most people I know that witnessed had a way of making people comfortable and just sharing their faith as Lord lead.

[turtle]

To preach hard there got to be a reason, or Godly reason hopefully to do so. To stand against scripture that is use falsely I think that not issue. Shadowcat where you and I perhaps agree is issue of loving others and perhaps compassion for those around us if we are able to help.

[shadowcat]

Turtle, something that I have mentioned a few other times on other forums. There is one thing I will just never understand. Those Christians that are out and about trying to win souls, they mean very well I'm sure but when they approach you and ask the infamous question, "if you died tomorrow would you go to heaven?". Then as a believer in Christ you tell them that and they just go on and on as though they did not even hear you say it, they persist. Then if you repeat it they start questioning where you go to church, what denomination you are and then the real kicker they will say something like, "but are you really saved? Have you really committed your life to Christ? Have you said the sinner's prayer?" etc... and so on. It's annoying as hell and just plain weird, no other way to describe it.

[turtle]

shadowcat, it funny on these boards I think we all tend to be a little different to life. Even if you got those evangelist on these boards, their approach would be different. Why because you can not see the other person's reaction. I mean either these boards make you aggressive, or you feel it is a riot, or you get info you did not have, or info you don't want but for some odd reason you filter it with reality or historical truth. It weird. However why not next time you run into one of those people try asking them about their tie or family. See if trying to get them to chill for a minute they do not tone things down a notch. Ask them if they know if they are really saved and ask based on what. The other day I was looking for the word grace and God just would not let it come to mine, but the guy was stuck on good works to the point one wonder if faith applied. There are people that get saved by such evangelism. Yet others yank the poor guys chain.

[stage director]

I would agree with that assertion, I consider this to be anti-semitic however... We're all doomed without Him.

Amen to that.