Evolution vs. Creationism

[turtle]

Hi Turtle. I have no idea what you mean when you say that the ancients knew that the “time dimension” existed. That’s pretty vague. Is there any doubt that people thousands of years ago knew what time was? The Egyptians were the first people to create a twenty-four hour day. The ancient Chinese, Babylonians, Greeks and Romans were using instruments to tell time. They had sundials, water clocks, and hour glasses. Oddly, you wrote that I “don’t like it.” As I often say to you…what in hell are you talking about?

Sorry dodge wrong again as usual. Go to Genesis 1:14 Don't ask no more until you have the guts to look it up yourself in a BiBle either Jewish Tanach or Christian Bible.

[dodge]

What, are you kidding me, Turtle? You asked me to read Genesis 1:14, which is a mythological tale about a supernatural being “creating” all the stars in the sky so that people can use them for “signs, seasons, days, and years.” Is that where you think galaxies, stars, and planets came from, a “god” “spoke” them into existence out of nothing? You really believe this? When do you think this happened? Are you a young earth creationist?

[turtle]

Dodge your original statement was calender and time was not kept until roman empire. I just prove you are speaking nothing but lies. For Genesis was written at the time of sumeritans. Abraham kept recorded. Moses translated from his text.

[dodge]

Turtle -- My “original statement” was that “the ancient Chinese, Babylonians, Greeks and Romans were using instruments to tell time;” not that the “calendar and time was not kept until Roman Empire.” That’s a complete misrepresentation of what I said. You do that a lot.

The first sundial arrived in Rome in 264 BC (according to Pliny), brought there from Catania, Sicily; but time keeping was known four thousand years ago in Mesopotamia and Egypt (“shadowclocks” were used about 5500 years ago in Egypt). The first calendars were used by hunter-gatherers during the last glacial period (more than ten thousand years ago) to keep track of the phases of the moon or the seasons (using sticks and bones).

Then we have stone circles like Stonehenge in prehistoric Europe, thought to keep track of equinoxes and solstices. I mentioned water clocks (clepsydrae) that were used in Ancient Greece, Plato himself having mentioned an “alarm clock” using one.

Even though I’m not really wanting to get into a biblical discussion, you’re so immersed in it through indoctrination that it’s compromised your ability to understand the nature of science, biological evolution, and the nature of reality itself. So let’s talk about Genesis.

Who do you think wrote the Book of Genesis? Moses? Ever heard of the “Documentary Hypothesis,” which asserts that the first five books of the Hebrew Bible were written by five authors or groups of authors, from various locations, over a period of centuries; each writing with a goal of promoting their own religious views?

You creationists seem to imagine that the first chapter of Genesis is a factual account of the origins of life, and campaign against the teaching of evolutionary theory because it contradicts the biblical creation story. In other words, you would rather believe religious mythology than science, the “supernatural” rather than the natural.

The author of the first book of Genesis (known as “P”) has an invisible supernatural entity “speaking a word of command,” and one by one the components of our world came into being. The first book describes some sort of “master plan of the universe,” and the second book describes some sort of “craftsman” fashioning the material universe, arranging the raw materials and establishing order to the cosmos. This is “baby talk” (balbative), adapting complex processes to the mentality of uneducated people.

Today, far-right conservative biblical literalists are battling real science in the classrooms, making “creation science” the flagship of their movement. This is why I’m here, to defend science against the right wing religious assault against the teaching of biological evolution.

[turtle]

Turtle -- My “original statement” was that “the ancient Chinese, Babylonians, Greeks and Romans were using instruments to tell time;” not that the “calendar and time was not kept until Roman Empire.” That’s a complete misrepresentation of what I said. You do that a lot.

The first sundial arrived in Rome in 264 BC (according to Pliny), brought there from Catania, Sicily; but time keeping was known four thousand years ago in Mesopotamia and Egypt (“shadowclocks” were used about 5500 years ago in Egypt). The first calendars were used by hunter-gatherers during the last glacial period (more than ten thousand years ago) to keep track of the phases of the moon or the seasons (using sticks and bones).

Then we have stone circles like Stonehenge in prehistoric Europe, thought to keep track of equinoxes and solstices. I mentioned water clocks (clepsydrae) that were used in Ancient Greece, Plato himself having mentioned an “alarm clock” using one.

Even though I’m not really wanting to get into a biblical discussion, you’re so immersed in it through indoctrination that it’s compromised your ability to understand the nature of science, biological evolution, and the nature of reality itself. So let’s talk about Genesis.

Who do you think wrote the Book of Genesis? Moses? Ever heard of the “Documentary Hypothesis,” which asserts that the first five books of the Hebrew Bible were written by five authors or groups of authors, from various locations, over a period of centuries; each writing with a goal of promoting their own religious views?

You creationists seem to imagine that the first chapter of Genesis is a factual account of the origins of life, and campaign against the teaching of evolutionary theory because it contradicts the biblical creation story. In other words, you would rather believe religious mythology than science, the “supernatural” rather than the natural.

The author of the first book of Genesis (known as “P”) has an invisible supernatural entity “speaking a word of command,” and one by one the components of our world came into being. The first book describes some sort of “master plan of the universe,” and the second book describes some sort of “craftsman” fashioning the material universe, arranging the raw materials and establishing order to the cosmos. This is “baby talk” (balbative), adapting complex processes to the mentality of uneducated people.

Today, far-right conservative biblical literalists are battling real science in the classrooms, making “creation science” the flagship of their movement. This is why I’m here, to defend science against the right wing religious assault against the teaching of biological evolution.

Sorry you are correct concerning Moses wrote five books, but he too had a source. It is called the rosetta stone. It origin was three tribal languages on it. This was found I think near and around the tribes of the Sumeritans. We are taught the five books are written by Moses because they are. However there is more knowledge today of hierglyphics. Meaning before Egypt was what a stone comprised fo three languages that united people. Each tribe wrote in the origins of life. I suspect it was Noah sons the original author. Why because technology was vast before the flood. All tribes descend from Noah that we know today. All tribes around the world remember the story of Noah handed down even if they do not believe in God of Bible as Christians claim.

[scout]

I hope you have looked at the Wikipedia article on this topic: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creatio...on_controversy

We had an extended debate on the issue on the Atheists/Theists section of chess.com without anyone getting convinced.

http://www.chess.com/groups/forumvie...1#last_comment

Many Christians have given up on the young earth position for obvious reasons.

[dodge]

Turtle -- the level of your misinterpretation, confusion, and misunderstanding is incredible. I can only shake my head in disbelief that you actually think Moses (who didn’t write the Pentateuch) had as his source the Rosetta Stone.

You obviously have no idea what the Rosetta Stone is. It’s a piece of igneous rock inscribed with a decree written in three scripts (Ancient Egyptian hieroglyphs, Demotic script, and Ancient Greek), carved 196 years B.C. (several hundred years after the mythical figure of Moses was supposed to have lived), by Egyptian priests to honor Pharoah Ptolemy V on the first anniversary of his coronation.

And you think that Moses used the Rosetta Stone as a source, that it “united people,” and that “tribes” wrote the “origins of life” on it? What do you do, just make it up as you go along?

[turtle]

Scout I looked and remember winipeg is not necessarily based on facts but people report anyone can make a claim.

[turtle]

Turtle -- the level of your misinterpretation, confusion, and misunderstanding is incredible. I can only shake my head in disbelief that you actually think Moses (who didn’t write the Pentateuch) had as his source the Rosetta Stone.

You obviously have no idea what the Rosetta Stone is. It’s a piece of igneous rock inscribed with a decree written in three scripts (Ancient Egyptian hieroglyphs, Demotic script, and Ancient Greek), carved 196 years B.C. (several hundred years after the mythical figure of Moses was supposed to have lived), by Egyptian priests to honor Pharoah Ptolemy V on the first anniversary of his coronation.

And you think that Moses used the Rosetta Stone as a source, that it “united people,” and that “tribes” wrote the “origins of life” on it? What do you do, just make it up as you go along?

Dodge you are confused. with the tahepanes stones and the rosetta stone. These are two stones, one at the time of Jeremiah which would of been around 400 BC writen on clay bricks because parchment probably was not available to the people.

HOwever dodge one has to remember the rosetta stone when it was found it not as important as old it is and that it was the tablet used to decipher many ancient stones. Abraham was near Sumeritans, and if you care to remember they were the first to begin a written language known to man or known to our world. Abraham was around 2000 something. He used silver coins/shelkes. Writings on coins to communicate what something was for was not unusual. Markings of any kind on silver, or clay or wood would of been to illustrate something. That is a form of writing.

[dodge]

Turtle -- You’re back-peddling (trying to retreat from your statement). It was you who said that the Rosetta Stone was used by Moses as a source (your post #85 this thread). I quote you, “…Moses wrote five books, but he too had a source. It is called the Rosetta Stone.” This is what you wrote.

Now you’re bringing up another “stone,” that you connect with Jeremiah, and something written on “clay bricks.” I guess you’re talking about something you found in Jeremiah 43, where “the lord” told Jeremiah to take some “large stones” and bury them in clay in the brick pavement at the entrance to Pharoah’s palace in Tahpanhes (a city near what is now the Suez Canal); and that this would be the spot where Nebuchadnezzar (King of Babylon) will set up his “royal canopy” (throne). From there, the King will attack Egypt, bring death and destruction by the sword, and set fire to Egyptian temples.

As far as I can see, there was nothing “written” on these stones. Perhaps it’s something that I missed. If so, please direct me to a source where I can see what was inscribed on these stones that Jeremiah buried in Tahpanhes.

[turtle]

Jeremiah 43:7-13 KJV
(7) So they came into the land of Egypt: for they obeyed not the voice of the LORD: thus came they even to Tahpanhes.
(8) Then came the word of the LORD unto Jeremiah in Tahpanhes, saying,
(9) Take great stones in thine hand, and hide them in the clay in the brickkiln, which is at the entry of Pharaoh's house in Tahpanhes, in the sight of the men of Judah;
(10) And say unto them, Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Behold, I will send and take Nebuchadrezzar the king of Babylon, my servant, and will set his throne upon these stones that I have hid; and he shall spread his royal pavilion over them.
(11) And when he cometh, he shall smite the land of Egypt, and deliver such as are for death to death; and such as are for captivity to captivity; and such as are for the sword to the sword.
(12) And I will kindle a fire in the houses of the gods of Egypt; and he shall burn them, and carry them away captives: and he shall array himself with the land of Egypt, as a shepherd putteth on his garment; and he shall go forth from thence in peace.
(13) He shall break also the images of Bethshemesh, that is in the land of Egypt; and the houses of the gods of the Egyptians shall he burn with fire.


From the International Bible Encyclopedia using e-sword.net
Tahpanhes
ta´pan-hēz, ta-pan´hēz (usually in the Old Testament תּחפּנחס, taḥpanḥēṣ; Septuagint Ταφνάς, Taphnás; Coptic, Taphnes): The various spellings of the Hebrew text are fairly well indicated in the King James Version by Tahapanes (Jer_2:16); Tahpanhes (Jer_43:7-9; Jer_44:1; Jer_46:14); Tehaphnehes (Eze_30:18), while an Egyptian queen (XXIst Dynasty) is named Tahpenes (1Ki_11:19, 1Ki_11:20). Tahpanhes was a city on the eastern frontier of Lower Egypt, represented today by Tell Defenneh, a desert mound lying some 20 miles Southwest from Pelusium (Biblical “Sin”) and a little North of the modern Al-Kantarah (“the bridge”), marking the old caravan route from Egypt to Palestine, Mesopotamia and Assyria. Its Egyptian name is unknown, but it was called Δαφναί, Daphnaı́, by the Greeks, and by the modern Arabs Def'neh. The site is now desolate, but it was a fertile district when watered by the Pelusiac branch of the Nile (compare Isa_19:6, Isa_19:7). Tahpanhes was so powerful that Jeremiah can say that it, with Memphis, has “broken the crown” of Israel's head (Jer_2:16), and Ezekiel can speak of its “daughters” (colonies or suburban towns), and names it with Heliopolis and Bubastis when the “yokes Septuagint “sceptres”) of Egypt” shall be broken by Yahweh (Eze_30:18). In a later passage Jeremiah describes the flight of the Jews from their ruined capital to Tahpanhes after the death of Gedaliah (Jer_43:1-7) and prophesies that Nebuchadnezzar shall invade Egypt and punish it, establishing his throne upon the brick pavement (the King James Version “kiln”) which is at the entry of Pharaoh's royal palace at Tahpanhes (Jer_43:8-11). He calls Tahpanhes as a witness to the desolation of the cities of Judah (Jer_44:1), but prophesies an equal destruction of Tahpanhes and other Egyptian cities (probably occupied by fugitive Jews) when Nebuchadnezzar shall smite them (Jer_46:14).
This invasion of Egypt by Nebuchadnezzar was for a long time strenuously denied (e.g. as late as 1889 by Kuenen, Historisch-critisch Onderzoek, 265-318); but since the discovery and publication (1878) of fragments of Nebuchadnezzar's annals in which he affirms his invasion of Egypt in his 37th year (568-567 BC), most scholars have agreed that the predictions of Jeremiah (Jer_43:9-13; Jer_44:30) uttered shortly after 586 BC and of Ezekiel (Eze_29:19) uttered in 570 BC were fulfilled, “at least in their general sense” (Driver, Authority and Archaeology, 116). Three cuneiform inscriptions of Nebuchadnezzar were found by Arabs probably on or near this site. The excavation of Tahpanhes in 1886 by W. M. Flinders Petrie made it “highly probable that the large oblong platform of brickwork close to the palace fort built at this spot by Psammetichus I, circa 664 BC, and now called Kasr Bint el-Yehudi, 'the castle of the Jew's daughter,' is identical with the quadrangle 'which is at the entry of Pharaoh's house in Tahpanhes' in which Jeremiah was commanded to bury the stones as a token that Nebuchadnezzar would spread his pavilion over them when he led his army into Egypt” (ibid., 117). Josephus explicitly mentions that Nebuchadnezzar, when he captured Tahpanhes, carried off a Jewish contingent from that city (Ant., IX, vii). Dr. Petrie found that while a small fort had existed here since the Rameside era (compare Herodotus ii. 17), yet the town was practically founded by Psammetichus I, continued prosperous for a century or more, but dwindled to a small village in Ptolemaic times. Many sealings of wine jars stamped with the cartouches of Psammetichus I and Amosis were found in situ. Tahpanhes being the nearest Egyptian town to Palestine, Jeremiah and the other Jewish refugees would naturally flee there (Jer_43:7). It is not at all unlikely that Nebuchadnezzar's invasion of Egypt was partly due to Egypt's favorable reception of these refugees.
The pottery found at Tahpanhes “shows on the whole more evidence of Greeks than Egyptians in the place... Especially between 607-587 BC a constant intercourse with the Greek settlers must have been going on and a wider intercourse than even a Greek colony in Palestine would have produced... The whole circumstances were such as to give the best possible opportunity for the permeation of Greek words and Greek ideas among the upper classes of the Jewish exiles” (Petrie, Nebesheh and Defenneh, 1888, 50). This was, however, only one of many places where the Greeks and Hebrews met freely in this century (see e.g. Duruy, History of Greece, II, 126-80; Cobern, Daniel, 301-307). A large foreign traffic is shown at Tahpanhes in which no doubt the Jews took part. Discoveries from the 6th century BC included some very finely painted pottery, “full of archaic spirit and beauty,” many amulets and much rich jewelry and bronze and iron weapons, a piece of scale armor, thousands of arrow heads, and three seals of a Syrian type. One of the few inscriptions prays the blessing of Neit upon “all beautiful souls.” There was also dug up a vast number of minute weights evidently used for weighing precious metals, showing that the manufacture of jewelry was carried on here on a large scale. One of the most pathetic and suggestive “finds” from this century, which witnessed the Babylonian captivity, consisted of certain curious figures of captives, carved in limestone, with their legs bent backward from their knees and their ankles and elbows bound together (Petrie, op. cit., chapters ix-xii).

[dodge]

Turtle -- None of what you just posted says anything about the stones buried by Jeremiah having anything written or carved on them, which is in contradiction to your statement that something was “written on clay bricks.” You’re trying to cover up your statement that Moses used the Rosetta Stone as a source. Why don’t you just admit that you’re wrong?

According to Old Testament mythology, Jeremiah buried several large stones in the pavement in front of the government building in Tahpanhes. None of them had anything carved or written on them. Your entire argument here about, as you put it, “each tribe wrote in the origins of life” on some stones is something you made up out of thin air. Stop trying to cover up your misunderstanding, misinterpretation, and confusion and face the fact that you have no idea what you’re talking about.

[turtle]

Dodge I have no problem admitting rosetta stone is out of Egypt however I have to look this stuff up, for I did not memorize it, and you not guilt free because you have the ability to look it up and do not, you just like to false accuse. You got to realize there was other forms of writting before people made a living in Egypt. Samaritans, Babel and so forth. Only reason you don't count them is it was so long ago. Yet Noah family came off of mount ararate and in the seventies that mountain was cover with snow according to the movies and now it is sunny and warm, they got a noah ark park in turkey.

[dodge]

Turtle -- I never post anything without thoroughly researching it. Unlike you, I know what I’m talking about. For instance, you bring up “Noah’s Ark Park” in Turkey. You’re talking about the Durupinar site in the Mount Tendürek region of eastern Turkey a couple of miles from the Iranian border.

This is the third time you’ve brought this up; once about a year and a half ago, then again three months ago, and now today. I’ll repost my response for the third time.

Hi Turtle. You really need to be more discerning about references you find, and learn how to research for yourself to find the truth. You mentioned a “Dr. Wyatt” in relationship to this so-called “discovery of Noah’s Ark.” It didn’t take me long to find out that his name was Ronald Eldon Wyatt (1933-1999), who was a nurse anesthetist (not a doctor). In 1960, Wyatt saw a picture in Life Magazine of the Durupinar site, and was so taken by it that he went to Turkey to become an amateur archaeologist.

The Durupinar site is in Turkey, a natural aggregate structure that led some Bible believers to promote it as the original Noah’s Ark. It was discovered in 1948 after a series of earthquakes exposed the formation by Captain Durupinar, for whom it was subsequently named.

The site was ignored until 1977, when Ron Wyatt “re-discovered” it and started promoting it.

http://www.isitso.org/guide/wyattnoah.html

Wyatt’s claims have been dismissed by scientists, historians, biblical scholars, and even the leaders of his own Seventh-Day Adventist Church. Wyatt also claimed to have found the grave markers of Noah and his wife, the location of the Tower of Babel, the Ark of the Covenant and the Ten Commandment stones.

At Answers in Genesis there is an article that exposes Ron Wyatt for the fraud that he was.

http://www.answersingenesis.org/crea.../i4/report.asp

And here you are, apparently believing that Noah’s Ark has been found. You’ve got to be one of the most gullible and naïve persons I’ve ever known. Do you believe everything you read as long as it confirms your religious mythology?

Turtle, try to understand what I’m saying. The Durupinar Formation is a common geological structure that has been misidentified by creationists as Noah’s Ark. They continue to perpetuate this myth for reasons of their own. The fact that the Turkish government officially declared a national park around this natural boat-shaped formation doesn’t make it Noah’s Ark. It’s a money-making tourist attraction and creationist propaganda vehicle and nothing more.

[turtle]

dodge though I can't remember all the names of all the scientist let me explain, I seen the original film of the exploration to Mount Ararat and snow blocked the ark in by snow and ice. It was vsible by a plane and explorers went to search this out.

[ba2]

I have learned that anything could be sold if you could figure out a way to connect it to the bible, or maybe simply put a cross on it. I saw high priced sea salt, high priced ($20 for 10 oz.) because it came from the Dead Sea (the connection to bible).

[dodge]

Anyway, trying to get back on topic (biological evolution vs. biblical creationism)…

The idea of evolution is that a species undergoes genetic change over time. That is, over many generations a species can evolve into something quite different, and those differences are based on changes in DNA which originate as mutations. The species of animals and plants living today were not around in the past, but are descended from those that lived earlier. Humans, for example, evolved from a creature that was apelike, but not identical to modern apes. Genetic and fossil evidence shows that modern humans descended from a primate lineage that split from our common ancestor with the chimpanzees roughly seven million years ago.

Some people misunderstand this and claim that evolutionists teach that “man came from monkeys,” to put it in the simplistic language I’ve seen coming from creationists. In reality, based on paleontological and genetic evidence, the genus Homo evolved in Africa about 2.3 million years ago; it’s first species being Homo habilis. About 1.5 million years later, Homo erectus evolved in Africa and spread to Eurasia. As best we know, the last common ancestor leading to Homo sapiens existed about 700,000 years ago. One of its evolutionary limbs yielded the Neanderthals, the other, Homo sapiens. Neanderthals and Homo sapiens, both of which evolved in Africa, split about 500,000 years ago. The Neanderthals migrated toward Europe where, by 150,000 years ago, they were populous and widespread. They moved to the Middle East and Asia as well.

Modern humans evolved between 150,000 and 200,000 years ago in Africa; and then dispersed into Asia, Australia, Europe, and the Americas. They co-existed with Neanderthals and bred with them, after which the Neanderthals became extinct; for reasons still not understood.

The Neanderthal genome was sequenced in 2010, and it confirmed the fact that humans and Neanderthals had a common ancestor about 600,000 years ago, but then split and developed separately. It also showed that 2.5% of the human genome (non-African exclusively) came from Neanderthals. The existence of these genes proves that Neanderthals mated with some modern humans and left a contribution to the human genome before they became extinct.

New evidence indicates that most or all Neanderthal bones in Europe are found to be around 39,000 years old. Modern humans existed in considerable numbers in Europe at that time, and Neanderthals became extinct about 30,000 years ago. This shows that humans and Neanderthals overlapped briefly in Europe about 40,000 years ago.

This is where we humans came from, having evolved from common ancestors going back millions of years.

(from Human Genes and Genomes: Science, Health, Society, by Leon E. Rosenberg and Diane Drobinis Rosenberg, copyright 2012 Elsevier Academic Press. Both authors are molecular biologists)

[dodge]

I really don’t understand why the biblically-indoctrinated feel threatened by evolution, and are of the opinion that it equals atheism. There are many Christians who don’t find evolution incompatible with their religious faith. For example, the governing and legislative body of the Episcopal Church issued a statement in support of evolutionary theory:

RESOLUTION A129: Affirm Creation and Evolution

Resolved, that the theory of evolution provides a fruitful and unifying scientific explanation for the emergence of life on earth, that many theological interpretations of origins can readily embrace an evolutionary outlook, and that an acceptance of evolution is entirely compatible with an authentic and living Christian faith.

Resolved, that Episcopalians strongly encourage state legislatures and state and local boards of education to establish standards for science education based on the best available scientific knowledge as accepted by a consensus of the scientific community.

Resolved, that Episcopal dioceses and congregations seek the assistance of scientists and science educators in understanding what constitutes reliable scientific knowledge.

http://www.churchsociety.org/issues_...enconv2006.asp

Then there is the Presbyterian Church (USA) that issued a statement in support of evolutionary theory reaffirming that “there is no contradiction between an evolutionary theory of human origins and the doctrine of God as Creator,” and encouraging “State Boards of Education across the nation to establish standards for science education in public schools based on the most reliable content of scientific knowledge as determined by the scientific community.” They called upon Presbyterian scientists and science educators to assist congregations, presbyteries, communities, and the public to understand what constitutes reliable scientific knowledge.

Similar statements can be found coming from such religious organizations as Lutherans, Jews, Methodists, Unitarian, and Catholic. In fact, there is a website called The Clergy Letter Project that’s designed to demonstrate religion and evolutionary theory is compatible. So far, as of June 21st, 12,812 signatures of Christian clergy have singed the statement includes the following:

“We believe that the theory of evolution is a foundational scientific truth, one that has stood up to rigorous scrutiny and upon which much of human knowledge and achievement rests. To reject this truth or to treat it as “one theory among others” is to deliberately embrace scientific ignorance and transmit such ignorance to our children.”

There are separate statements signed by Rabbis and clergy from Unitarian Universalists at The Clergy Letter Project urging public school boards to affirm their commitment to teaching evolution as a fundamental concept of science and a core component of human knowledge.

http://www.theclergyletterproject.or...rClergyLtr.htm

As is noted in the statements, “Fundamentalists of various traditions, who perceive the science of evolution to be in conflict with their personal religious beliefs, are seeking to influence public school boards to authorize the teaching of creationism,” and see it as a “breach in the separation of church and state.” Those who believe in a literal interpretation of the biblical account of creation are free to teach their perspective in their homes, religious institutions and parochial schools; but to teach it in the public schools would be to assert a particular religious perspective in an environment which is supposed to be free of such indoctrination.

I guess that’s the key word here, “indoctrination.” Immersion in scripture seems to, for a lot of bibleheads, cause them to adopt an anti-science mind-set. They would rather believe in imaginary mythological invisible supernatural beings than take the time to learn about the science of evolutionary biology.

[turtle]

Dodge I am not episcopalin, however you bring up a question why would any church, why would any believer. That studies scripture. Prehaps it is the division of sects of churches, or maybe in truth it not being able to look at it rationally because evolution leaves out the word the word God or supreme being. You route everything you believe back to you don't believe God exist, yet you accept evolution and do not accept Biblical record of creation.

Now dodge we both agree with certain things. You would not be moved on your indoctrination either will I. That why we look at things we do agree on and decide ot teach it. Just like that law of separation of church and state, but there is no problem with a plaque on school walls demonstrating this point. For faith is truly individual, but historically it should not be left out of history class. In other words why not a study of the temple as historical architecture, or the order of kings of Jewish people and how their relationship with other countries as far as culture not benefit students. I learn about india, europe, Arabia in school and even hinduism, buddhism and china without ever hearing about the jewish people. Nor was Noah ark ever mentioned.

Now if I give you evolution you could at least allow history of jewish, christian and islamic world how they interact and any progress they made in culture.

[dodge]

Turtle -- You said that “evolution leaves out the word of god.” Of course it does, because science involves the investigation of the natural world. Hypothetical “supernatural” agents can’t be observed or recorded by the procedures of science. Science works on the assumption that natural events have natural causes (called “methodological naturalism”). This is the nature of scientific research, using the “scientific method” to investigate phenomena.

The process of finding truth through the scientific method involves asking a question, doing background research, constructing a hypothesis, testing a hypothesis through experimentation, then analyzing data and coming to conclusions. Then you’re ready to communicate the results in peer-reviewed journals.

Claims involving the supernatural are outside the proper domain of scientific investigation. You can’t add supernatural involvement into the account of evolution by natural selection by allowing a god to meddle in the evolutionary process, because it would no longer be natural selection.

Try to understand this, Turtle -- the scientific method doesn’t involve the supernatural. In evolutionary theory, natural selection explains apparent design in nature by a purely materialistic process that doesn’t require supernatural forces. If you add the supernatural into the mix, it becomes creationism…not science. So-called “intelligent design” is unscientific, because it relies on un-testable supernatural explanations; making it and “creation science” flawed and illogical and rightfully rejected by the scientific community.

Supernatural explanations are not needed. We manage to understand the natural world just fine using reason and materialism; and our study of the universe is going to continue until humans become extinct.

As far as teaching the history of religious ideas, that’s not the domain of science. There are other disciplines more suited for that; such as comparative religion and world history. Just keep religion and the supernatural where they belong…out of public school science classes.