Reply With QuoteI am shocked!
If you were to go to a JW church in another state would they know or care, though?
This reminds me of the Catholic practice, albeit extremely unusual, of excommunication, and the Amish practice of putting people under the ban.
I was baptised at 12, and disf
I was baptised at 12, and disfellowshipped and 17 for smoking a cigarette, well, for lying about having smoked a cigarette.
Can I have my records deleted with the 'society', or my disfellowshipping removed somehow? I'm 45 now, and my own family doesn't even talk to me, still! And the funny part is, I don't even smoke...
I just want my records destroyed or purged, like I was never a witness. Can anyone help with info or suggestions on what I can do to accomplish reversing or removing the disfellowshipping, or removing my records or something....? I was a minor for God's sakes....
Senior Member
Disfellowshipping
I am shocked!
If you were to go to a JW church in another state would they know or care, though?
This reminds me of the Catholic practice, albeit extremely unusual, of excommunication, and the Amish practice of putting people under the ban.
Senior Member
Hi Scout...
I trust you are aware that this is a Bible mandate and not a man made rule of dogma?Originally Posted by scout
Tony
Senior Member
Disfellowshipping
There are Scriptural verses that speak to the need for discipline. It has to be done properly, not in a heavy-handed way. And the ones doing it must be a real church, licensed ministers, etc.. If they are not, it is just a power trip. I was reading an Old Testament quote on how widows and orphans are particularly protected by God and that how a great curse falls on those who would "afflict" them. But what do you read in the New Testament? There are specific qualifications for good widows. There are clearly bad ones and bad orphans who are under no such protection.
The basis for disfellowshipping should be major sins: unwillingness to repent, no sorrow over one's sins, violations of other people's rights, drug addiction, promiscuity, what the Galatians calls "the works of the flesh". Christians should not be walking in the flesh but in the spirit.
By the same principle, I don't think that someone who has made a career out of ripping people off, should suddenly be "forgiven" and welcomed into fellowship without a long process giving evidence of real repentance. I personally am willing to submit to qualified rebuke as the Scripture teaches. pm me and I will get back to you if I am off base.
Senior Member
Dear Scout...
Dear Scout:
You state, “There are Scriptural verses that speak to the need for discipline” and I reply that while this is so, you are also not mentioning other forms of discipline clearly mentioned in the Bible that perhaps you are not aware of.
You state, “It has to be done properly, not in a heavy-handed way” and reply, that this is not the case, for instance, under the Mosaic Law if you committed adultery, you were “executed” rather than being expelled! In fact in the matter of David, when he did so with Bathsheba, and also arranged for the death of her husband in battle, 2 Samuel 2: 13, (American Standard Version) states, “13 And David said unto Nathan, I have sinned against Jehovah. And Nathan said unto David, Jehovah also hath put away thy sin; thou shalt not die.” But, other than David, one was clearly executed for this type of behavior etc. So, back then, if one abused their authority, as did David, God took care of the matter, as with Eli’s Sons etc. As to a Christian Minister or Elder doing something in a heavy handed manner, like abusing their responsibilities, then these ones would be dealt with by God, not different than in the OT, for misusing their God given responsibilities. See Hebrews 10: 31 and also, James 3: 1.
As to your state, “And the ones doing it must be a real church, licensed ministers, etc.” and so then who decides this, you, others, etc, or the Bible! The Bible qualifies those who have this authority and oversight in the Christian Congregation, and it does not state, that one must be “formally” trained to this or that or in a particular type of school etc, as that was the case under the Jewish System of things, that gave rise to the 40 or so factions of formalistic training and schools for Jews, that fostered the formation of the Sadducees, Pharisees, Essenes etc. but that was NOT found in the Bible as a requirement for the Priesthood etc. Man outside the scriptures did this invention of a license, school or accreditation but this is NOT found in God’s Word the Bible neither in the OT or NT.
Your statement, “If they are not, it is just a power trip” is absolutely true for some in as recorded in the Bible and also for us today! See this at 1 Timothy 4: 1-4 etc.
You state, “I was reading an Old Testament quote on how widows and orphans are particularly protected by God and that how a great curse falls on those who would "afflict" them” and reply, that this is indeed true, and people like Eli’s Sons and others were dealt with by God accordingly, and so it is with the NT.
You state, But what do you read in the New Testament? There are specific qualifications for good widows. There are clearly bad ones and bad orphans who are under no such protection” and reply, that in this I could not agree with you more, but add that the provisions you speak of is also found in the OT and has nothing to do with the point of your post.
You state, “The basis for disfellowshipping should be major sins: unwillingness to repent, no sorrow over one's sins, violations of other people's rights, drug addiction, promiscuity, what the Galatians calls "the works of the flesh". Christians should not be walking in the flesh but in the spirit” and reply, that in this I also agree as this his what the scriptures plainly state on this, which is odd, as on one hand you take a stand against this, and yet on the other hand, you agree with it thereby contradicting yourself on this.
You state, ’By the same principle, I don't think that someone who has made a career out of ripping people off, should suddenly be "forgiven" and welcomed into fellowship without a long process giving evidence of real repentance. I personally am willing to submit to qualified rebuke as the Scripture teaches. pm me and I will get back to you if I am off base” and reply, that again, what you offer as an opinion on, is also based on and found in scripture, so I do not see a point of disagreement here, that again, appears to be in conflict with what you post here against disfellowshipping above!
You state, “I personally am willing to submit to qualified rebuke as the Scripture teaches. pm me and I will get back to you if I am off base” and reply, then, what happens if you do not agree with the counsel and or rebuke given, especially if you FEEL you are right, and those appointed to do this, do not agree with you! See, according to Jeremiah 17: 9, I repeat, that you may FEEL you are right, and the elders, or ministers in a congregation may express that you are wrong!!!! Scripturally speaking, you would be required to submit to the counsel (See this at Hebrews 13: 17) and if they are wrong, they will pay a heavy price! All this according to scripture and not opinion!
Let me try to provide you with a reply that places this in prospective, from the Bible’s standpoint. The Christian congregation, [back then and now] while having no secular authority as a court, may take action against disorderly members who require spiritual discipline, and it can even expel them from the congregation, again your own posts are against and yet for the same which is why I have stated it is odd.
Therefore, the apostle Paul tells the congregation [then and now] that they, that is, the representative members thereof, those having oversight, must judge those inside the organization. See this for yourself, at 1 Corinthians 5:12, 13. In writing to congregations and to overseers both Paul and Peter point out that the elders or ministers in responsibility, should keep a close watch on the congregation’s spiritual condition and should assist and admonish anyone who is taking an unwise or wrong step. See this clearly at 2 Timothy 4:2, 1 Peter 5:1, 2; and compare Galatians 6:1.
The scriptures also state, that those who are causing divisions or sects are to be warned a first and a second time before congregational action is taken, see this at Titus 3: 10, 11. However, the Bible also states, that insistent practicers of sin are to be removed, expelled from the congregation, which I again point out, is what you also state toward the end of your post that seems to contradict itself-the point of your post itself.
These Bible scriptures constitute discipline, showing to the offenders that their course of sin cannot be tolerated in the congregation, see this at 1 Timothy 1:20. Paul instructs those men in the congregation having the responsibility to protect the sheep, it’s members to gather together to hear such matters see this clearly at 1 Corinthians 5:1-5 and 6:1-5. See also, 1 Timothy 5:19, 21.
Finally, there is a well established provision in scripture, at 2 Corinthians that allows for reinstatement, of an expelled person, as was the case discussed over the man in 1 Corinthians that was expelled-disfellowshipped for having relations with his step-mother, though that was later brought back into the congregation because of his repentant attitude.
All, in all, the provision of scriptural discipline in the NT, is much more loving than that of the OT, where one was put to death, with no opportunity to repent.
Best regards,
Tony
Senior Member
Disfellowshipping
The reason I answered this unanswered post was because the OP said he was disfellowshipped over smoking.
We don't know all the facts of the case, there may have been other issues. An unanswered post, I thought it might be worth debating this issue.
As I pointed out, the authority doing the ex-communication must be qualified. Timothy and Titus give qualifications for overseers. I would also hope that the overseer is a licensed minister, because I have seen fellowships where there is no submission to anyone but their own autonomous fellowship, not to other authorities within the church who have seen hundreds if not thousands of examples of rebellion addressed by wise leaders who follow the Scriptural counsel on how to proceed.
One could give examples from each church tradition of how ex-communication was done properly. The Roman Catholic church is a very pro-life, family-centered church. Therefore those who do not repent of grave and "mortal" sins are in seen to be out of the faith and they would bring judgment on themselves were they to continue to receive communion. But they rarely ex-communicate, I was watching EWTN on Sunday, where the Father was talking about the New York Times and how Maureen Dowd, the NYT columnist who is critical of the RC church and nurses who perform abortion should be warned about their sins and possibly excommunicated.
Since this was posted on the Jehovah's Witnesses section, possibly an active JW leader would be willing to post his experience on when this was done properly.
The reason I gave an example of Old Testament vs. New Testament church practice was because New Testament teaching supercedes Old Testament practice as Jesus Christ said in the Sermon on the Mount.
The basis for my concern on doing ex-communication improperly is that I have seen "fellowships" feeling they are God's agents and have a right to deliver people to Satan for the destruction of their flesh, or saying people are under their ban like Alexander and Hymeneus, as if they have the authority to pray for the physical death of others. To me to condemn others, especially in absentia, without right of representation and defense, is indicative of a cult, or a "fellowship" that has fallen from a relationship to Jesus Christ and His mercy. Without proper procedure of judgment, accountability is false. As if the State Police were to do a pre-dawn raid at your house without having a legal basis for doing so. I don't know if this helps.
Last edited by scout; 07-20-2010 at 10:19 PM.
Senior Member
This was the original post. It was years ago that the post was made. Pitiful. He lied about smoking. I hold no defense for smokers, I have never smoked, but many of the Puritans grew and smoked tobacco. As C.S. Lewis points out, the physical sins are far more egregious than the spiritual ones--pride, firstly.
Senior Member
Judgment
Also, I would cite Ezekiel 16:49 as a basis for why God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah. Homosexuality was not even prominent on the list of sins
Senior Member
My Reply....
Scout:
Thank you for your response. I do not debate; however, I have and do engage in spirited exchanges!
I understand how you feel, however in the end, it is one thing NOT to be told or have disclosed a matter to then have something unknown used against you, unfairly! It IS quite another matter, to be fully disclosed and advised of a matter or step BEFORE one commits to something, which is an axiom of life in any discipline, whether at work, play, education, etc. In this matter, those who become JW’s learn about what God’s Word expects of them, how God wants us to worship him (not the other way around as is commonly the case) and or in this case, what would be expected of a person who is a JW, BEFORE they become one! So, to later complain, AFTER the fact about something, when going into it, you were fully told about it, is not only ridiculous, but unfair and unsound, making the criticism of the same, misplaced!!! Again, I repeat, it is quite another matter, to express oneself, up front such as how you feel and or disagree with something, as compared to AFTER the fact as having no merit! No one becomes a JW’s due to a membership drive or because of some automatic feeling! All those who present themselves to Christ Jesus, in dedication to his God and Father, as Christian JW’s clearly learn what the God requires of us as stated in the Bible BEFORE they get baptized. You are very much mistaken in this matter, as I do not believe you have all the facts.
You are wise to state, and I agree, that “We don't know all the facts of the case, there may have been other issues.”
You paragraph here, completely ignore what I represented in response to you above, and while you pointed out, “As I pointed out, the authority doing the ex-communication must be qualified. Timothy and Titus give qualifications for overseers” and I agree, I take exception to your opinion of things as to what you are characterizing as to what ministers should do, when according to the Bible, these qualifications were to be met and addressed by the older men, Elders or ministers within the Congregation, NOT that that it MUST be DONE through a school or institution of one’s subjective CHOICE! And I pointed out that there is Bible examples that refer to schools, but those who attended them, were enemies of Christ not God’s people EVER!!! So the precedent or reference you choose to lean on is not sound from the standpoint of God’s people or the Bible, bur is rather taken from a modern non Bible standpoint!
Sir, further on this, you state, “I would also hope that the overseer is a licensed minister, because I have seen fellowships where there is no submission to anyone but their own autonomous fellowship, not to other authorities within the church who have seen hundreds if not thousands of examples of rebellion addressed by wise leaders who follow the Scriptural counsel on how to proceed” and reply, that you somehow feel that “licensing” by an authority you approve (as I am certain others can and could disagree with what authority you choose, making it OPINION and not Bible) does not ensure correct behavior, in religious affairs and or in any walk or discipline in life. It is the Bible, God’s own word that ensures whether something is being done right or wrong, not any man made institution.
You state, “One could give examples from each church tradition of how ex-communication was done properly” and reply, that is a TWO-WAY STREET! Also, I am not speaking here as to the “church”, “tradition” of “excommunication” works, as I am only stick to what the Bible mandates on this and all other subject matters relating to God, his Son and our spirituality!
I do not speak to political matters or to anything that is outside the Bible, as I am neutral in all political affairs, whether they are fostered by religious entities or not, so when you state, “The Roman Catholic church is a very pro-life, family-centered church” I have nothing to say about this other than the Bible is clear about abortion and the Bible is NOT political, but is used by those in Christendom for political religious agendas, that again I do not get involved in nor do I offer an opinion on.
When you state, “Therefore those who do not repent of grave and "mortal" sins are in seen to be out of the faith and they would bring judgment on themselves were they to continue to receive communion. But they rarely ex-communicate, I was watching EWTN on Sunday, where the Father was talking about the New York Times and how Maureen Dowd and nurses who perform abortion should be warned about their sins and possibly excommunicated” I reply, if you are speaking about JW’s, then, I reply, that no JW would commit an act against God as plainly stated the Bible, nor assist another person in doing so, from adultery, stealing, murder etc. If you are not, then, know, that I am not speaking to outside the Bible, socio-religious experiences, as to how they expel people, as I only believe this in accordance to the manner it is outlined in the Bible.
You state, “Since this was posted on the Jehovah's Witnesses section, possibly an active JW leader would be willing to post his experience on when this was done properly” and reply, that I doubt very much a JW would post here, as I am the only one that does this here, that I am aware of, and also, we do not have “leaders” so, this could never be complied with. Please do not confuse those in the Bible who have the responsibility of oversight-management with those referred to as “leader” as that simply does not exist among the JW’s. It is also Biblical, not to have such, as Matthew 23: 8-12 tells us, not to call anyone “ Rabbi”, “Leader” or “Father” on EARTH involving spiritual matters as contrasted to calling one’s Father, Father!
You state, “The reason I gave an example of Old Testament vs. New Testament church practice was because New Testament teaching supercedes [sic] Old Testament practice as Jesus Christ said in the Sermon on the Mount” and reply, you are mistaken, the NT does not “supersede” the OT, but completely fulfills, compliments and harmonizes it! This is why I and those like me, refer to Biblical texts by the name it gives itself, such as Hebrew Scriptures or Christian Greek Scriptures, rather than the man made names, “Old Testament” and “New Testament” that originated outside the Bible
You state, “The basis for my concern on doing ex-communication improperly is that I have seen "fellowships" feeling they are God's agents and delivering people to Satan for the destruction of their flesh, of saying people are under their ban like Alexander and Hymeneus, as if they have the authority to pray for the physical death of others” and reply, Sir, first it is one thing to take issue with matters of improper conduct and abuse, as it occurs today, it is another totally different subject matter, where we have exchanged posts regarding what the Bible outlines Congregations to do, as God addresses this according to scripture not humans! Therefore all man can do today is to do one’s best to follow what God’s Word states, leaving it up to God to make right! However, with that said there are times, that if a minister or elder abuses a matter, like in the form of child abuse, that they not only be dealt with via a Biblical judicial manner, but also, to report the same to the authorities in order to address it by government authorities! Bottom line on this, I and those like me use as a standard of life, in order to set all matters straight (2 Timothy 3: 16, 17) God’s Word, rather than that of men.
You state, “To me to condemn others, especially in absentia, without right of representation and defense, is indicative of a cult, or a "fellowship" that has fallen from a relationship to Jesus Christ and His mercy. Without proper procedure of judgment, accountability is false. As if the State Police were to do a pre-dawn raid at your house without having a legal basis for doing so. I don't know if this helps” and reply, so who here Sir decides on what is “proper procedure”, you or the Bible? Do you not believe that God can overrule a human and address them accordingly, so that if such an abuse takes place, it will addressed by God who sees all things and what the heart is? I do. Again, in this we may differ! Sir, I have been disfellowshipped more than once, and am a JW, so while I speak out of first hand knowledge and experience, you may not! So no Sir, this is NOT the same thing you analogize to a pre-dawn raid, as unlike like a surprise attack, those who become JW’s are clearly informed of what their God and the Bible expects of them, so, that if they disagree, the person simply chooses not to become a JW! However, after the fact, well, that is another matter!
Now, there are direct things the Bible speaks of as supported directly by scripture (murder, adultery etc) that I pointed out to you in my previous post however, there are also other matters, where the Bible lays down principals, which are inherently higher than rules or laws, as laws and rules are based on principals and laws and rules can change whereas principals NEVER do! The Bible does not speak of Computers, however, there are principals one can apply to them if a person simply chooses to live one’s life entirely via a computer, shutting out all sorts of human contact, etc!
Therefore, some principals on which the matter of smoking is based on is what I touch upon here below so that you can better understand that this is not some sort or arbitrary and capricious JW rule, as I already addressed the fact that all JW’s before they get baptized are made fully aware of!
Besides befouling the air, smokers do not show love for their families and others. Yet, love of neighbor is a Christian requirement. After Jesus Christ told us we must love our God with our whole heart, soul and mind etc, then he uttered the second greatest commandment that we as Christians are obliged to keep, and that is, ‘You must love your neighbor as yourself.’” (See this at Matthew 22:37-39) Loving one’s neighbor also lends itself to what is known today as the “Golden Rule” enunciated by our Lord and Master Jesus Christ when he stated: “All things, therefore, that you want men to do to you, you also must likewise do to them.” (See Matthew 7:12) Certainly, if a person was doing something in your presence that was obnoxious, sickening or threatening to you, would you not consider it loving and considerate if he or she desisted.
The Bible also provides another principal that applies to this subject matter. Obviously, persons would not want to endanger and possibly ruin their health on purpose, by smoking and thus try to present to God something inferior by their deliberate action. Why? Well the Bible clearly tells us, that Christians must present their bodies “a sacrifice living, holy, acceptable to God.” (See this at Romans 12:1) Moreover, since this sacrifice is to be “holy,” true followers of Christ truly respect God’s admonition as told us by the Apostle Paul, “Let us cleanse ourselves of every defilement of flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in God’s fear.” (2 Corinthians 7:1) That leaves no room for such an unclean habit as smoking, does it? This would also apply to illegal drugs, over indulgence of alcohol etc., that can ruin the body etc.
In line with that, please consider the matter of the power over one’s own will. If this were diminished by addiction to the drug nicotine found in tobacco, how could one please God? His Word urges the cultivation and display of self-control, a fruit of God’s spirit. (Galatians 5:22, 23; 2 Peter 1:5, 6) Reasonably speaking, based on the above principals, can it be said that godly self-control really is being exercised by persons who yield to nicotine addiction and or who purposely choose to pollute or ruin their bodies, which Christians are to present as a living sacrifice holy to God?
Also, I trust you will not argue that nicotine addiction affects the mind detrimentally and produces enslavement. So, truly it may be classed with addictive drugs, such as those for the Greek term used in the Bible known as PHARMAKIA, which at it’s basic definition means “druggery” in English. Also, due to the close connection between drug use and spiritism, this Greek word came to be associated with spiritistic practices. In fact, it was used by inspired Bible writers and has been rendered in the Greek text as “practice of spiritism” and “spiritistic practices” etc., in passages that clearly condemn spiritism. (See this for yourself at Galatians 5:20, 21; Revelation 9:20, 21 along with a good Greek interlinear and Greek Lexicon)
Therefore it is for these reasons above and other Bible principals, that Christian JW’s do not use tobacco and also, expel those from the Congregation who BEFORE they are baptized JW’s, become Baptized as one, who later choose to purposely do so, and not to live up to their dedication to God, through Christ Jesus our Lord!
I have learned in my life that it is very easy to throw stones, (make accusations) but it is quote another to address them, thereby repairing the damage cause by the stones!
I conclude by stating, that I have found the following quote applies to those who truly want to believe anything they want to believe, or feel, so long as they happen to agree with it! It is a quote from "Johann Goethe”, the 18th-century German novelist and scientist, who stated, "It is easier to perceive error than to find truth, for the former lies on the surface and is easily seen, while the latter lies in the depth, where few are willing to search for it"!!!!! (Thanks Dave for the quote).
Tony
Senior Member
Jude 7
My reply, Jude 7.
T
Senior Member
Oops sorry this is the reply
Scout:
Thank you for your response. I do not debate; however, I have and do engage in spirited exchanges!
I understand how you feel, however in the end, it is one thing NOT to be told or have disclosed a matter to then have something unknown used against you, unfairly! It IS quite another matter, to be fully disclosed and advised of a matter or step BEFORE one commits to something, which is an axiom of life in any discipline, whether at work, play, education, etc. In this matter, those who become JW’s learn about what God’s Word expects of them, how God wants us to worship him (not the other way around as is commonly the case) and or in this case, what would be expected of a person who is a JW, BEFORE they become one! So, to later complain, AFTER the fact about something, when going into it, you were fully told about it, is not only ridiculous, but unfair and unsound, making the criticism of the same, misplaced!!! Again, I repeat, it is quite another matter, to express oneself, up front such as how you feel and or disagree with something, as compared to AFTER the fact as having no merit! No one becomes a JW’s due to a membership drive or because of some automatic feeling! All those who present themselves to Christ Jesus, in dedication to his God and Father, as Christian JW’s clearly learn what the God requires of us as stated in the Bible BEFORE they get baptized. You are very much mistaken in this matter, as I do not believe you have all the facts.
You are wise to state, and I agree, that “We don't know all the facts of the case, there may have been other issues.”
You paragraph here, completely ignore what I represented in response to you above, and while you pointed out, “As I pointed out, the authority doing the ex-communication must be qualified. Timothy and Titus give qualifications for overseers” and I agree, I take exception to your opinion of things as to what you are characterizing as to what ministers should do, when according to the Bible, these qualifications were to be met and addressed by the older men, Elders or ministers within the Congregation, NOT that that it MUST be DONE through a school or institution of one’s subjective CHOICE! And I pointed out that there is Bible examples that refer to schools, but those who attended them, were enemies of Christ not God’s people EVER!!! So the precedent or reference you choose to lean on is not sound from the standpoint of God’s people or the Bible, bur is rather taken from a modern non Bible standpoint!
Sir, further on this, you state, “I would also hope that the overseer is a licensed minister, because I have seen fellowships where there is no submission to anyone but their own autonomous fellowship, not to other authorities within the church who have seen hundreds if not thousands of examples of rebellion addressed by wise leaders who follow the Scriptural counsel on how to proceed” and reply, that you somehow feel that “licensing” by an authority you approve (as I am certain others can and could disagree with what authority you choose, making it OPINION and not Bible) does not ensure correct behavior, in religious affairs and or in any walk or discipline in life. It is the Bible, God’s own word that ensures whether something is being done right or wrong, not any man made institution.
You state, “One could give examples from each church tradition of how ex-communication was done properly” and reply, that is a TWO-WAY STREET! Also, I am not speaking here as to the “church”, “tradition” of “excommunication” works, as I am only stick to what the Bible mandates on this and all other subject matters relating to God, his Son and our spirituality!
I do not speak to political matters or to anything that is outside the Bible, as I am neutral in all political affairs, whether they are fostered by religious entities or not, so when you state, “The Roman Catholic church is a very pro-life, family-centered church” I have nothing to say about this other than the Bible is clear about abortion and the Bible is NOT political, but is used by those in Christendom for political religious agendas, that again I do not get involved in nor do I offer an opinion on.
When you state, “Therefore those who do not repent of grave and "mortal" sins are in seen to be out of the faith and they would bring judgment on themselves were they to continue to receive communion. But they rarely ex-communicate, I was watching EWTN on Sunday, where the Father was talking about the New York Times and how Maureen Dowd and nurses who perform abortion should be warned about their sins and possibly excommunicated” I reply, if you are speaking about JW’s, then, I reply, that no JW would commit an act against God as plainly stated the Bible, nor assist another person in doing so, from adultery, stealing, murder etc. If you are not, then, know, that I am not speaking to outside the Bible, socio-religious experiences, as to how they expel people, as I only believe this in accordance to the manner it is outlined in the Bible.
You state, “Since this was posted on the Jehovah's Witnesses section, possibly an active JW leader would be willing to post his experience on when this was done properly” and reply, that I doubt very much a JW would post here, as I am the only one that does this here, that I am aware of, and also, we do not have “leaders” so, this could never be complied with. Please do not confuse those in the Bible who have the responsibility of oversight-management with those referred to as “leader” as that simply does not exist among the JW’s. It is also Biblical, not to have such, as Matthew 23: 8-12 tells us, not to call anyone “ Rabbi”, “Leader” or “Father” on EARTH involving spiritual matters as contrasted to calling one’s Father, Father!
You state, “The reason I gave an example of Old Testament vs. New Testament church practice was because New Testament teaching supercedes [sic] Old Testament practice as Jesus Christ said in the Sermon on the Mount” and reply, you are mistaken, the NT does not “supersede” the OT, but completely fulfills, compliments and harmonizes it! This is why I and those like me, refer to Biblical texts by the name it gives itself, such as Hebrew Scriptures or Christian Greek Scriptures, rather than the man made names, “Old Testament” and “New Testament” that originated outside the Bible
You state, “The basis for my concern on doing ex-communication improperly is that I have seen "fellowships" feeling they are God's agents and delivering people to Satan for the destruction of their flesh, of saying people are under their ban like Alexander and Hymeneus, as if they have the authority to pray for the physical death of others” and reply, Sir, first it is one thing to take issue with matters of improper conduct and abuse, as it occurs today, it is another totally different subject matter, where we have exchanged posts regarding what the Bible outlines Congregations to do, as God addresses this according to scripture not humans! Therefore all man can do today is to do one’s best to follow what God’s Word states, leaving it up to God to make right! However, with that said there are times, that if a minister or elder abuses a matter, like in the form of child abuse, that they not only be dealt with via a Biblical judicial manner, but also, to report the same to the authorities in order to address it by government authorities! Bottom line on this, I and those like me use as a standard of life, in order to set all matters straight (2 Timothy 3: 16, 17) God’s Word, rather than that of men.
You state, “To me to condemn others, especially in absentia, without right of representation and defense, is indicative of a cult, or a "fellowship" that has fallen from a relationship to Jesus Christ and His mercy. Without proper procedure of judgment, accountability is false. As if the State Police were to do a pre-dawn raid at your house without having a legal basis for doing so. I don't know if this helps” and reply, so who here Sir decides on what is “proper procedure”, you or the Bible? Do you not believe that God can overrule a human and address them accordingly, so that if such an abuse takes place, it will addressed by God who sees all things and what the heart is? I do. Again, in this we may differ! Sir, I have been disfellowshipped more than once, and am a JW, so while I speak out of first hand knowledge and experience, you may not! So no Sir, this is NOT the same thing you analogize to a pre-dawn raid, as unlike like a surprise attack, those who become JW’s are clearly informed of what their God and the Bible expects of them, so, that if they disagree, the person simply chooses not to become a JW! However, after the fact, well, that is another matter!
Now, there are direct things the Bible speaks of as supported directly by scripture (murder, adultery etc) that I pointed out to you in my previous post however, there are also other matters, where the Bible lays down principals, which are inherently higher than rules or laws, as laws and rules are based on principals and laws and rules can change whereas principals NEVER do! The Bible does not speak of Computers, however, there are principals one can apply to them if a person simply chooses to live one’s life entirely via a computer, shutting out all sorts of human contact, etc!
Therefore, some principals on which the matter of smoking is based on is what I touch upon here below so that you can better understand that this is not some sort or arbitrary and capricious JW rule, as I already addressed the fact that all JW’s before they get baptized are made fully aware of!
Besides befouling the air, smokers do not show love for their families and others. Yet, love of neighbor is a Christian requirement. After Jesus Christ told us we must love our God with our whole heart, soul and mind etc, then he uttered the second greatest commandment that we as Christians are obliged to keep, and that is, ‘You must love your neighbor as yourself.’” (See this at Matthew 22:37-39) Loving one’s neighbor also lends itself to what is known today as the “Golden Rule” enunciated by our Lord and Master Jesus Christ when he stated: “All things, therefore, that you want men to do to you, you also must likewise do to them.” (See Matthew 7:12) Certainly, if a person was doing something in your presence that was obnoxious, sickening or threatening to you, would you not consider it loving and considerate if he or she desisted.
The Bible also provides another principal that applies to this subject matter. Obviously, persons would not want to endanger and possibly ruin their health on purpose, by smoking and thus try to present to God something inferior by their deliberate action. Why? Well the Bible clearly tells us, that Christians must present their bodies “a sacrifice living, holy, acceptable to God.” (See this at Romans 12:1) Moreover, since this sacrifice is to be “holy,” true followers of Christ truly respect God’s admonition as told us by the Apostle Paul, “Let us cleanse ourselves of every defilement of flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in God’s fear.” (2 Corinthians 7:1) That leaves no room for such an unclean habit as smoking, does it? This would also apply to illegal drugs, over indulgence of alcohol etc., that can ruin the body etc.
In line with that, please consider the matter of the power over one’s own will. If this were diminished by addiction to the drug nicotine found in tobacco, how could one please God? His Word urges the cultivation and display of self-control, a fruit of God’s spirit. (Galatians 5:22, 23; 2 Peter 1:5, 6) Reasonably speaking, based on the above principals, can it be said that godly self-control really is being exercised by persons who yield to nicotine addiction and or who purposely choose to pollute or ruin their bodies, which Christians are to present as a living sacrifice holy to God?
Also, I trust you will not argue that nicotine addiction affects the mind detrimentally and produces enslavement. So, truly it may be classed with addictive drugs, such as those for the Greek term used in the Bible known as PHARMAKIA, which at it’s basic definition means “druggery” in English. Also, due to the close connection between drug use and spiritism, this Greek word came to be associated with spiritistic practices. In fact, it was used by inspired Bible writers and has been rendered in the Greek text as “practice of spiritism” and “spiritistic practices” etc., in passages that clearly condemn spiritism. (See this for yourself at Galatians 5:20, 21; Revelation 9:20, 21 along with a good Greek interlinear and Greek Lexicon)
Therefore it is for these reasons above and other Bible principals, that Christian JW’s do not use tobacco and also, expel those from the Congregation who BEFORE they are baptized JW’s, become Baptized as one, who later choose to purposely do so, and not to live up to their dedication to God, through Christ Jesus our Lord!
I have learned in my life that it is very easy to throw stones, (make accusations) but it is quote another to address them, thereby repairing the damage cause by the stones!
I conclude by stating, that I have found the following quote applies to those who truly want to believe anything they want to believe, or feel, so long as they happen to agree with it! It is a quote from "Johann Goethe”, the 18th-century German novelist and scientist, who stated, "It is easier to perceive error than to find truth, for the former lies on the surface and is easily seen, while the latter lies in the depth, where few are willing to search for it"!!!!! (Thanks Dave for the quote).
Tony
Senior Member
Disfellowshipping
. It is also Biblical, not to have such, as Matthew 23: 8-12 tells us, not to call anyone “ Rabbi”, “Leader” or “Father” on EARTH involving spiritual matters as contrasted to calling one’s Father, Father!
You state, “The reason I gave an example of Old Testament vs. New Testament church practice was because New Testament teaching supercedes [sic] Old Testament practice as Jesus Christ said in the Sermon on the Mount” and reply, you are mistaken, the NT does not “supersede” the OT, but completely fulfills, compliments and harmonizes it! This is why I and those like me, refer to Biblical texts by the name it gives itself, such as Hebrew Scriptures or Christian Greek Scriptures, rather than the man made names, “Old Testament” and “New Testament” that originated outside the Bible.
On the first paragraph, yes, I have known those who take the stand that terms like "pastor" or any other title showing authority are not Biblical. They will use the term "brother" but not other titles. The term "reverend" by this standard is suspect. I knew a couple of families in a Vermont Baptist church who were excommunicated after a formal meeting. The two men opposed the role of women in that church which they saw as contrary to the Scripture that women are to remain silent and also that all elders are to have children under proper discipline. If you had a son who was a homosexual or a daughter who is disorderly or a lesbian, he should be disqualified. However, the church though right to oppose these men's rebellious spirit, were wrong in how they performed the hearing IMHO.
I don't have a huge problem with calling ministers "father"--both the Episcopal and Catholic churches have this practice. I once brought the issue up with a well-like Episcopal minister, and he defended the practice based on tradition and accused me of being "superficial" in my judgment of his ministry.
On the issue of whether the New Testament teachings "supersede" the Old Testament teachings, we have just to read Jesus say what the OT teaching was, and His response "but I say unto you". Not "resisting" evil is one of the hardest and infrequently practiced teachings IMHO.
My thinking on licensing ministers is similar to reasons why every large organization should be under levels of authority--because there are a few who when given power will abuse or misuse it. So if a given church minister is out of order, there should be a process for bringing him to accountability. But even this is often ineffective, in the case of the homosexual minister Gene Robinson in New Hampshire. The whole church tried to address this issue and could not do it without division. I regard homosexuality as odious. But under Scriptural teaching chastity is to be followed even for married couples--I don't mean no sex, but that couples are to love and cherish one another, not use and exploit one another. Gandhi addresses many of these concerns in his "Health Guide" which calls for self-denial with regard to discipline of the body. Gandhi's "Health Guide" is available on the internet.
Paid Member
Hi! I just wanted to point out that Catholic excommunication is reversible. It means that the person may not take communion until some condition is met and that the person receives the sacrament of confession.
As far as Amish and evangelical churches go, it seems to me that being disfellowshipped (sp) isn't ever reversible, but very final. That's what I've been told, anyway.
--God is Love--
Bramble
Senior Member
Your reply...
You state, “On the first paragraph, yes, I have known those who take the stand that terms like "pastor" or any other title showing authority are not Biblical. They will use the term "brother" but not other titles. The term "reverend" by this standard is suspect” and reply that nothing you state here is in conflict with the Bible or what I posted on this matter from scripture as found for us at Matthew 23: 8-12.
You state, “I knew a couple of families in a Vermont Baptist church who were excommunicated after a formal meeting. The two men opposed the role of women in that church which they saw as contrary to the Scripture that women are to remain silent and also that all elders are to have children under proper discipline. If you had a son who was a homosexual or a daughter who is disorderly or a lesbian, he should be disqualified. However, the church though right to oppose these men's rebellious spirit, were wrong in how they performed the hearing IMHO” and reply, that while I appreciate your experience and first hand knowledge on this, this really has nothing to do with the point at hand, regarding expelling, as found for us in the Bible for proper use by those within the Christian Congregation, as we both know that certain things rather all things, like this can be abused by humans.
However as to the two things you mentioned, the scriptures are clear, NOTE I did not say that the behavior in the churches you describe is Biblical behavior from the standpoint of the manner in which the organization chose to apply the scriptures, however, let us examine a few scriptures that clearly apply to what you refer to above, here below (Please look up all the scriptures yourself so that you can see it is NOT my opinion but rather that I believe what the scriptures state on these subject matters, as I a NOT an authority, the Bible, God’s Word IS):
I am quoting them from the following website: www.biblegateway.com, which has about 21 Bibles in English available and many more others in different languages.
1 Corinthians 6: 9-11, (KJV) states, “9Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 10Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. 11And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.”
In more modern English, the NASB states here, “9Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.”
The Bottom Line: The Bible provides God’s view of how the human family is to live, and worship him in an acceptable manner again HIS standards not yours, mine or any other humans, as most people feel that anything goes and or “It’s All Good.” Most if not nearly all (hopefully) human beings would have no issue with saying that those who are unrepentant practicing thieves, or murderers for instance would not have God’s approval, HOWEVER, when one moves onto to more personal matters, such as one’s own personal preference with regards to life’s choices, sex etc., then that is a different matter, but, the Bible also makes clear how God’s feels and counsels his earthly human family, on what He expects of them with regards to their personal behavior and conduct as to what He finds acceptable-righteous and or not-unrighteous. This is where people, humans, tend to take their personal preferences, and FORCE or IMPOSE it upon their worship of God, as though they are speaking for GOD, simply because they choose to practice a conduct or behavior, which God clearly condemns as wrong, from HIS-GOD’s standpoint, not the other way around!
The scripture quoted above from 1 Corinthians, ends with the commentary, that some of those within the First Century Christian Congregation had formally practiced these things, though again, were no longer doing so! We learn from this text and many others, that while God makes his position clear on how HE feels, we as humans are to live, He does not FORCE anyone to do so, allowing people to choose for themselves what course of life they choose to follow. We also learn from scripture that God does not HATE people who practice these activities, BUT does hate the activity itself as from God’s standpoint, it is wrong! Finally also we learn from scripture that God will not indefinitely tolerate wrong behavior again FROM his standpoint, and that when creatures (angels or humans) go outside the boundary of what HE God purposed for his creation, then God reacts in a firm, but decisive manner, as he did in Genesis 6, where Sons of God, (spirit Sons-angels) came to earth and materialized humans, and had relations with humans, something that God permitted, meaning he did not stop them, though, did not approve of that conduct and behavior, but addressed it, firmly and decisively, in his time timetable, though he did address it!!!! So too will God do so today! (Please read Matthew 24: 36-39).
As to women, you apparently are referring to various scriptures, and they are 1 Corinthians 14: 33-34 and 1 Timothy 2: 11-12. These scriptures do not express that a woman is to be completely silent at a meeting of the Christian congregation. The Bible is hear speaking to a woman, with regards to “teaching” in a congregation, in an appointed capacity, as there were no female elders, again, as to spiritually speaking, as God sets this out accordingly, and while it may be distasteful to some, it is not distasteful for those men and women, who truly love their God and want to please Him, again it is NOT the other way around! This spiritual order within the family arrangement and spiritual relationship of worship is clear. But, that does not belittle a woman, nor does it prevent women from having a meaningful share and role, in worshipping God at Christian meetings. Many women among JW’s while not serving as elders, serve in many serious and responsible capacities in missionary work along with men, in world wide construction projects etc, etc. etc. women are cherished and respected as JW’s.
Bottom Line: If one truly accepts God’s Word as the end all, final authority for all matters of life (Please read 2 Timothy 3: 16, 17) then, we as humans (like when children male and female were required to obey our parents) must respect our Heavenly Father’s wishes when it comes to how he counsels humans on how to live, and worship Him in an acceptable and pleasing manner, again to HIM, and I remind you that God does not FORCE us to live by his requirements, just like he did not immediately step in or prevent angelic sons of His from going beyond what He created angels for, BUT did act, and will act in the future, according to the Holy Scriptures, to address these matters globally, with finality, whether or not humans accept his requirements or not.
You state your opinion and experience here when you express, “I don't have a huge problem with calling ministers "father"--both the Episcopal and Catholic churches have this practice. I once brought the issue up with a well-like Episcopal minister, and he defended the practice based on tradition and accused me of being "superficial" in my judgment of his ministry” and I reply, that you are entitled your opinion, and your experience is what it is, however, I can only state in reply, what I have stated, and it is the Bible that states this and I simply choose to obey, respect and honor my God’s instructions on this.
You state, “On the issue of whether the New Testament teachings "supersede" the Old Testament teachings, we have just to read Jesus say what the OT teaching was, and His response "but I say unto you". Not "resisting" evil is one of the hardest and infrequently practiced teachings IMHO” and reply I am not sure what you are expressing here, however, I can say, we are told in God’s Word, that ALL SCRIPTURE not just part, or some of it, is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching etc, please note, 2 Timothy 3: 16, 17, (NIV) “All Scripture is God-breathed” [most state, inspired] “and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work” which scripture and principal applies to both men and women. If one leaves the Bible text, (Please read Jeremiah 20: 23 and Jeremiah 17: 9) then we are left with our own designs, with plain old human opinions, reasoning and thinking, which then leaves each one up to their way to live, which is why we have God’s Word, so we can choose either to live by it or not and do our own thing, or not, as God allows us to do so, but just, not always!
You state, “My thinking on licensing ministers is similar to reasons why every large organization should be under levels of authority--because there are a few who when given power will abuse or misuse it. So if a given church minister is out of order, there should be a process for bringing him to accountability” and reply, that I could not agree with you more, and as to JW’s there is huge accountability, that not only could involve disfellowshipping, but, reporting elders to the authorities or courts etc., to address. There is no such thing among JW’s regarding the shifting of elders who abuse people, children etc as they are dealt with accordingly in the congregation they serve, so that if they are disfellowshipped or an elder loses their privileges to serve as an elder, then it applies to every congregation in the world! Among JW this is an effective method, again I cannot speak to other faiths. BTW: More than 750 people become JW’s everyday, worldwide.
You state, “But even this is often ineffective, in the case of the homosexual minister Gene Robinson in New Hampshire. The whole church tried to address this issue and could not do it without division. I regard homosexuality as odious. But under Scriptural teaching chastity is to be followed even for married couples--I don't mean no sex, but that couples are to love and cherish one another, not use and exploit one another. Gandhi addresses many of these concerns in his "Health Guide" which calls for self-denial with regard to discipline of the body. Gandhi's "Health Guide" is available on the internet” and reply, I do not have much to say about this, one way or another, other than to state, that in the worldwide Christian Congregations (over 103K of them and growing daily) of JW’s, we all speak in agreement (See 1 Corinthians 1: 10) so no such issue of discord would occur regarding matters of a spiritual nature and that of right and wrong! Differences of opinion yes, but not on issues of right and wrong as according to God’s standards and word!
I conclude by stating that I believe that God’s Word the Bible is the only book, one can use as a complete guide to all of mankind’s matters along with having the ONLY solution to solving all the evils and ills affecting humans!
Best regards,
T
Senior Member
It is among JW's
Bramble:
I am a JW and have been disfellowshipped more than once and have been reinstated accordingly, and currently am an active JW.
There is a lot of misinformation about JW's that people just accept and never verify.
Best regards,
Tony
Senior Member
New Testament vs. Old Testament
Pretorian, I did not quote a lot of Scriptures since many of us have read the KJ Bible through dozens of times and know what the essential teachings are. I will copy and paste here what Jesus said the OT teaching was, and what He said was the "higher" meaning:
13 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. 18 Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, until all things have taken place. 19 Therefore, whoever breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do so will be called least in the kingdom of heaven. But whoever obeys and teaches these commandments will be called greatest in the kingdom of heaven. 14 20 I tell you, unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter into the kingdom of heaven. 21 15 16 "You have heard that it was said to your ancestors, 'You shall not kill; and whoever kills will be liable to judgment.' 22 17 But I say to you, whoever is angry 18 with his brother will be liable to judgment, and whoever says to his brother, 'Raqa,' will be answerable to the Sanhedrin, and whoever says, 'You fool,' will be liable to fiery Gehenna. 23 Therefore, if you bring your gift to the altar, and there recall that your brother has anything against you, 24 leave your gift there at the altar, go first and be reconciled with your brother, and then come and offer your gift. 25 Settle with your opponent quickly while on the way to court with him. Otherwise your opponent will hand you over to the judge, and the judge will hand you over to the guard, and you will be thrown into prison. 26 Amen, I say to you, you will not be released until you have paid the last penny. 27 19 "You have heard that it was said, 'You shall not commit adultery.' 28 But I say to you, everyone who looks at a woman with lust has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29 20 If your right eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one of your members than to have your whole body thrown into Gehenna. 30 And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one of your members than to have your whole body go into Gehenna. 31 21 "It was also said, 'Whoever divorces his wife must give her a bill of divorce.' 32 But I say to you, whoever divorces his wife (unless the marriage is unlawful) causes her to commit adultery, and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery. 33 22 "Again you have heard that it was said to your ancestors, 'Do not take a false oath, but make good to the Lord all that you vow.' 34 But I say to you, do not swear at all; 23 not by heaven, for it is God's throne; 35 nor by the earth, for it is his footstool; nor by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the great King. 36 Do not swear by your head, for you cannot make a single hair white or black. 37 24 Let your 'Yes' mean 'Yes,' and your 'No' mean 'No.' Anything more is from the evil one. 38 25 "You have heard that it was said, 'An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.' 39 But I say to you, offer no resistance to one who is evil. When someone strikes you on (your) right cheek, turn the other one to him as well. 40 If anyone wants to go to law with you over your tunic, hand him your cloak as well. 41 Should anyone press you into service for one mile, 26 go with him for two miles. 42 Give to the one who asks of you, and do not turn your back on one who wants to borrow. 43 27 "You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' 44 But I say to you, love your enemies, and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your heavenly Father, for he makes his sun rise on the bad and the good, and causes rain to fall on the just and the unjust. 46 For if you love those who love you, what recompense will you have? Do not the tax collectors 28 do the same? 47 And if you greet your brothers only, what is unusual about that? Do not the pagans do the same? 29 48 So be perfect, 30 just as your heavenly Father is perfect.
There are many teachings in the Sermon on the Mount that are new. I could go over them one by one and ask if you know anyone who is keeping all of them, I don't think we would find many.
Senior Member
Reply...
Scout:
You have left off dialoguing about what you initially posted and exchanged. Also when you quote scriptures, please be so kind as to give the entire reference cited as it appears you are quoting parts of Matthew 5, though the verses seem to be out of sequence. Please know that I do not take issue with what you state or quote, as taught to us by our Lord and Master Jesus Christ at all, not one iota!
I represented that the Hebrew Scriptures (OT) were both fulfilled and enhanced by the Christian Greek Scriptures (NT) and that the Kingly Law of Love, of God and Neighbor along with the Golden Rule, are indeed Principles, that are indeed higher or greater than the laws and regulations of the Mosaic Law. To illustrate, more clearly what I mean by this, the sign posted for speeding in order to avoid breaking the law is at 65 MPH, for a particular part of an expressway, and it is based on what the principle of “SAFETY” of speed for that particular thoroughfare, however, construction crews are found working the next day in the same place, and now the sign reads, 25 MPH, or one breaks the law which is also based on the same principle of SAFETY for the circumstance. The law changed, but the principle on which it is based, SAFTEY did not, nor ever will!
This then applies to the OT into the NT. When Jesus was questioned which law was the greatest, his reply, serves to demonstrate and establish what I discuss above, which is compatible to what you appear to represent; as recorded for us at Matthew 22: 34-40, note what it states, (KJV), “ 34But when the Pharisees had heard that he had put the Sadducees to silence, they were gathered together. 35Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying, 36Master, which is the great commandment in the law? 37Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38This is the first and great commandment. 39And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 40On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.”
Jesus could state that the entire law as found in the Hebrew Scriptures, (OT) all 613 laws, are based on two laws, above, that of love of God and Love of neighbor which are the “principles”, on which all of these laws in the OT were based, and that were later changed, and enhanced by what Christ taught us, which again is based on love of God and neighbor and includes the Kingly law, that of due unto others as you would have them do unto you.
And while Matthew 5: 48, which you quote above, I believe as verse “30” speaks about us needing to be “perfect”, in the Greek carries the sense of being “complete” toward something, i.e. a goal or model etc., as we know that no one can keep the law of God perfectly, of be like God, but, what we can do is, be complete in commitment to do our very best to follow the model God gave-sent us, that of his only begotten Son; And this is something humans can indeed choose do, as God would never ask to do something that we were not able to perform. This is something humans do, not so with our loving Heavenly Father, who is the God of Jesus Christ. (See Ephesians 1: 3, and 17!).
Tony
Senior Member
Hey! I ran out of oatmeal and won't get paid until next week. Any of that miracle wheat still for sale, or better,free?
Senior Member
Disfellowshipping
"You have left off dialoguing about what you initially posted and exchanged. Also when you quote scriptures, please be so kind as to give the entire reference cited as it appears you are quoting parts of Matthew 5, though the verses seem to be out of sequence. Please know that I do not take issue with what you state or quote, as taught to us by our Lord and Master Jesus Christ at all, not one iota".
Going back to the original poster's concern, that he had apparently violated the church's position against smoking tobacco and then was called to task and lied about doing this, I cannot find Biblical grounds for excommunication for smoking. You cited some relevant Scriptures, but the Bible never says, "thou shalt not smoke" tobacco, pot, clove bud, or other herb. I have never seen a Scripture that makes mention of a smoker. Drunks, yes, "pharmakea" yes (and BTW, this should encompass both legal and illegal "recreational" drugs--the Greek is ambiguous). C.S. Lewis, a smoker, once visited with the Bob Jones, and was not reprimanded for it.
So there are many warnings against various types of sins in the Bible, but not smoking. Some groups prohibit caffeine in drinks, alcohol (Biblical), and other unhealthy things, even though to read the science reports, you would think that coffee is the new health food. Jesus said to take no thought for what you should eat or wear, Paul said that those who had strict diets or something to that effect, were not benefitted by such. It is not what goes into us but what comes out of us that defiles or offends. I would agree that healthy intake makes for healthy people and a more agreeable society, but to mandate these things may be a form of legalism.
I spoke with some observant Talmudic Jews on a hiking trip yestderday who were enjoying a smoke on top of a mountain hike. I don't know whether they were doing something their elders would not approve of.
Senior Member
i am a pentecostal and dont smoke or use tobbacco in any formi am also a teetltaler too. but that doesnt make me saved i got saved by beleiveng and accepting JESUS CHRIST as my savior
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