My theory on HEFbs apparent insensitivity

[studious]

I wasn't there, but I've looked into the matter of HEF's apparent insensitivity as people suffered. Long story short: he was an academic! He had been a professor and got let go for his beliefs, so started his own class-er-church--get my drift? Perhaps he treated the church like a college classroom. I have first-hand experience with this: my wife is a professor and I'm a lecturer, and the last thing academic types want to do is hold students' hands or have pity parties for them because the professor (not I at this time because I'm part time, but my wife) is very busy and has to keep the momentum going. If a student can't/won't handle the workload, they can drop, be withdrawn by the professor and get not credit, or flunk, cut and dry. I'm not saying we're heartless, but those of you who went to college should understand. There are levels of dealing with students' problems and, of course, if a student's loved one dies the professor can give the student a nonpunitive "incomplete" and the student can finish up later.

[hombre]

...that's an interesting insight, and has probably more than a grain of truth in it...however.....

...as I note from reading the Bible, Jesus wasn't exactly known for being the one to rush to the aid of everyone that called to Him for 'a hug'.

Over and over again, I see Him instructing others about faith, and either condemning them for their lack of it, or praising them for possessing it.

...and let's remember...and this is going to be WAY over the top to a lot of religious folks:

GOD is able to fix anything, anytime He wants to.

So then, WHY is it that He doesn't seem to care about all that is happening down here on planet Earth?

HE is supposed to be the 'all compassionate/all loving/all caring' ....GOD...so where is He at, in the midst of all this?

What I don't understand about some Christian folk, is that they can't seem to put together the idea that the God they worship, doesn't do diddley-squat down here about the suffering that is happening to the worlds population in general, and not a lot more for many who merely call themselves by His name ( and I'm not going to go into the general sovereignty of God here and the fact that He makes the sun to rise on the just and the unjust, etc., ): in fact, most Christians will fight for the right to express their position in God's sovereignty to do that which is 'His will' over and above that which we, as Christians petition Him for....and yet they continue to think that the same God is going to provide them with eternal salvation, mansions in heaven,streets paved in gold, and the love will be oozing out so thick that one could cut it with a knife.

So what IS GODS' will, anyway?

...that we should all suffer, because that's good for us?

He seems to be quite the heartless 'academic' Himself.

...there are those who will take those thoughts and turn it into anger against God, however, there are also those of us who do not see a contradiction in that, but rather see a challenge.

...people like Abraham, Moses, Joshua, Rahab the Harlot, Elijah, Elisha and the rest of the prophets, David, Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Peter, Paul etc., etc., etc.

...as I heard many times: GOD is not going to do anything more than He has already done. He is waiting on YOU and ME to exercize our faith in Him, and His faithfulness to perform that which He said He would.

Mark 11:24 / John 21:22, etc., etc., etc.

...I hasten to add, that I am not judging ANYONE, because I am not the judge, nevertheless, when Christians fight for the right to passively accept their 'fate' at the hands of a capricious God spinning the roulette wheel of destiny, while simultaneously tossing away the tools to the deliverance of their problems that God has offered them, what can I say but what Jesus said:

'....O fools, and slow of heart to believe ALL that the prophets have spoken...' ~ Luke 24:25

..wasn't Jesus the Prophet of prophets?

..and wasn't it He that said:

'....And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive. ' ~ Matt 21:22

and again:

'..Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father. And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.'. ~ John 14:12

...???????

...so then, it looks to me like either Jesus was a heartless liar, or we're missing it somewhere.

The same could be said of Hobart for teaching the words of Jesus, since as Jesus Himself also declared:

'..The disciple is not above his master, nor the servant above his lord...' ~ Matt. 10:24

(Message edited by hombre on October 05, 2007)

(Message edited by hombre on October 05, 2007)

[johiyom]

Just a few thoughts at this time:

Numbers 11
Moses delegates ministry of 70 to help bear the burdens of the people of Israel because he couldn't do it all alone, being one man.

Jesus seemed to be approachable and personable with people on many levels:

He explained his parables(teachings) to the disciples who came to him and asked for explanations.
He recognized levels of growth in spiritual matters and faith(Mark 4)
He had compassion on the multitudes and took the time to teach them many things.
He took the time to lay hands on and bless children when certain disciples felt it was a waste of time and unnecessary.
He ate with publicans and sinners- the outcasts of society. Obviously he was seeking to help, teach and reach them.
He delegated ministry to the 12, then to 70 more because like Moses, being one man, he couldn't do it all.
He was concerned about even the physical needs of the multitudes(thousands) and performed the miracle of the loaves and fishes.
He took the time to go to people's houses to dine with, fellowship with, minister to, and speak to them.
He had friends he loved( example:Lazarus) who were not in his immediate circle of disciples.

There are probably more examples in the Gospels. Jesus wasn't the cold, distant, harsh, matter of fact, indifferent person as some care to think.

I believe I read on a post somewhere that there were more pastoral types among the five-fold at FA, but perhaps it was still not enough in the long run and thus damage occured because of the teachings. All men are limited human beings and fallable. Hindsight is 20/20.

[studious]

Both of you presented sound responses and I hesitate to get in the middle--I agree with both of you! Not that it matters, because I'm the least connected with FA.

[hombre]

..leave it to little johnny to bring the cookies and koolaid to the party.

Hey, thanks, Johnny.

To the above list of wonderful things Jesus did in His ministry, yes, yes, and yes.

However, He wasn't the Oprah-esque 90s metrosexual that so many try to brand Himand Christianity with.

Oh, Jesus would NEVER hurt anyones' feelings, would He?

..or would He?

And another of his disciples said unto him, Lord, suffer me first to go and bury my father. But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.
~ Matt 8 : 21-2.

And there went great multitudes with him: and he turned, and said unto them, If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.
~ Luke 14:25-6

....there are, of course, other verses I could quote, however, I think that the juxtaposition of these 2 verses makes my point best:

1. 'But when Jesus knew it, he withdrew himself from thence: and great multitudes followed him, and he healed them all...'
~ Matt 12:15

2. 'Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it? When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?.... ....From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him. Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away? Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God....' ~ John 6: 60-69

..my point being: ..although the premise of Christianity is Gods' love toward mankind, Christianity is also NOT for the feint of heart. Trials and tribulations are THE WAY into the kingdom. If one is not suffering, somehow, someway, it is highly doubtful that their Christianity is sincere. This is a religion that is chosen not on the basis of what one can get, or how well one is treated and his/her battle wounds cleansed by doting parental figures, but is one based upon the love of the truth, which in turn is what sets men free.

Christianity is a battlefield, and the last thing one needs when he/she is in boot camp is a mother figure.

'For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.'
~ Heb 4:12

There is a balance here, as there is with every topic. ....are we to be compassionate? Yes. ...are we to live our lives in love as examples to the world? Yes. ..are we to forbear and forgive one another? Yes.

Yes, yes and yes.

BUT...there is also the other side of the coin, and that is individual responsibility, and ones' individual relationship with the Lord Himself, that no one else, including truckloads of marshmallows can do for you.

(Message edited by hombre on October 06, 2007)

[johiyom]

"However, He wasn't the Oprah-esque 90s metrosexual that so many try to brand Him and Christianity with."

I'm not sure what metrosexual has to do with anything. In fact, I had to look up the word to know what it even meant:
a heterosexual male who has a strong aesthetic sense and inordinate interest in appearance and style.
But as far as Oprah is concerned, she is, generally speaking, typical of America all across the board; and America, in my opinion, is a lot like the Athenians in Acts 17:21 (For all the Athenians and strangers which were there spent their time in nothing else, but either to tell, or to hear some new thing.)
The latest fad, fashion(is this where the metrosexual kicks in?), craze, book, novelty, theory, discovery, psychobabble, ad infinitum/ad nauseum.
And to me this fits well with II Tim.3:7
Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

[studious]

Oprah pushes something called "The Secret"--the pagan version of "name it and claim it"--substituting the universe or genie for God and promoting materialsm without regard to a person's moral standing. What crap. I don't buy the Christian version of "name it & claim it," at least in every instance (sometimes God's answer is "no"), but at least there's a Bible-based version. Oprah is a pagan universalist.

[hombre]

Johnny, johnny, johnny.....the problem is that you are getting your street definitions from dictionaries.

'Metrosexual' was a term coined in the 90s, that speaks of men losing their masculinity due to the emergent female subculture that began with Womens Lib and is currently manifesting it's rebellious abhorrence of God given male authority through people like Oprah et al.

Try this for a better def:
http://www.urbandictionary.com/defin...rm=metrosexual

..of course, this is a liberal dictionary, and naturally they put a positive spin on it; however with real 'men' and I mean those who don't bow to the alter of Oprah, 'metrosexual' has negative connotations.

..thus it is simply another slam of mine against marshmallows.

~cheers.

[johiyom]

hombre, I don't even like Oprah Winfrey or the Oprah Winfrey Show so I don't worship at her altar. Male authority is one thing; abuse of male authority is a different monster. Islamic nations are perfect examples of male authority gone irresponsibly awry.
Think about it: Anna Schrader(a woman) prophesied concerning Hobart Freeman and he must have taken her prophecy as coming from God's Holy Spirit. Perhaps she didn't stay in her place either and what she said needs to be questioned by you and me.

[hombre]

I never said that you were a metrosexual, I am only making a point about the way that the Oprah philosophy and feminizatiion of America is bleeding into the church. It's actually quite an easy mix, when one considers the doctine of non-rsistance and love toward all...but it's an entirely different thing.

...as per Anna Schrader...the proof has yet to be seen...the seeds that 'Hobart' sowed are quite alive and well, we all haven't died, and the end time move of God, has really yet to begin.

'...Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled....'
~ Luke 21:32

[johiyom]

Well I hope the endtime move of God and the pouring out of His Spirit as Joel predicted be more like the book of Acts, without people trying to be healed by faith and dying or letting their children die. Or are we gonna have millions die instead of maybe a mere one hundred, not by persecution and martyrdom, but by more extrapolation?

[johiyom]

Here I go...the only secret Oprah has is probably her relationship to Gail/Gayle, not Stedman. But I did like her character, Sophia, in the movie, The Color Purple, where the mayor's wife asked her if she wanted to be her maid and her response was, "HELL NAW!" And then she clarified her statement again, only to be pistol whipped. Now that was funny...I don't care who you are.