Mormon Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints LDS Archive 03052003

[nulla (nulla)]

Here is a PDF file of the Three Degrees Of Glory.
http://www.shields-research.org/Gene...cap400x100.pdf

Here is the undoctored passage

"Why is it in this Church we do not grant the priesthood
to the Negroes? It is alleged that the Prophet Joseph said
-and I have no reason to dispute it-that it is because of
some act committed by them before they came into this
life. It is alleged that they were neutral, standing neither
for Christ nor the devil. But, I am convinced it is because
of some things they did before they came into this life
that they have been denied the privilege. The races of
today are very largely reaping the consequence of a previous
life.

Joesdad,
what is the correct interpretation for this passage, and what is it that he agrees with JS about?

Nulla

[joesdad (joesdad)]

Nulla: !!! one man's uninspired INTERPRETATION of an ALLEGED statement - I don't call that first hand evidence, do you? - I call that opinion, and in mine he is wrong.

[nulla (nulla)]

Joesdad,
did JS state or put to pen anything along those lines regarding negroes, blacks or non white races, for the above person to state it is "alleged that some act committed by them.. etc......"
I realise this is not yours or most lds members views on culture today.
The point is as well that this person is as guilty as the people who interpreted his statement and quoted it differently if he himself is stating your prophet said or meant something that cannot be validated.

Nulla

[godchild (godchild)]

joesdad, would you tell us what you were taught as to why the blacks could not hold the priesthood?

[joesdad (joesdad)]

My understanding of the issue so far as Joseph Smith is concerned:

1) he never made any statement as a Prophet of God (or so far as I can find as a son of God) that would indicate that the Priesthood related to anything but spiritual worthiness;
2) JS in fact ran as a Candidate for the Presidency of the united States on an anti-slavery ticket stating "it makes my blood boil within me to reflect upon the injustice, cruelty, and oppression of the rulers of the people. When will these things cease to be, and the Constitution and the laws again bear rule?"
3) His stance on slavery was significant in the anti-Mormon feelings that resulted in the Saints being forced out of Missouri.

I also understand:

1) The “ban” applied to all men of AFRICAN descent, REGARDLESS of the colour of their skin, I understand that some Caucasians of African descent who had been given the Priesthood, were asked to relinquish it. Men of other races including Polynesians have always been able to hold the Priesthood;

I am unsure whether this principle was introduced as Doctrine or inspired policy, on this point I quote (for reference only) Hugh B Brown :

"A serious problem that has confronted us, especially during the past few decades has been our denying the priesthood to the Negro. Personally, I doubt if we can maintain or sustain ourselves in the position we have adopted but which has no justification in the scriptures, as far as I know. The president says it can only come by revelation. If that is true, then change will come in due course. It seems to me that if we had admitted the Negro to the church as a full member, at the time of Joseph Smith, we would have had more trouble with the government than we then had. Holding ourselves aloof from that until after the Civil war gave us the opportunity to establish the church without that question coming to the front. It was, in other words, a policy, not necessarily a doctrine."

For me, the policy has never affected me, just in the way Polygamy, The Mountain Meadow Massacre and other Historical details of the Church have not. This does not in anyway mean I have have information or detail on them withheld from me, or that I have ignored them. They are History.

My concern comes when other PRETEND that these events mean more than they can be justifies to mean.

Nulla: I wholly disagree with you that a person should be held responsible for the way another interprets their comments, that is a ridiculous idea. Just as ridiculous is not allowing a person the freedom to interpret the words they read. A persons predisposition to a particular view cannot be guarded against as you suggest – this would only result in restriction of free expression and free speech – it is your responsibility (to yourself) to investigate the nature and the reasons of such claims and then come to a conclusion AFTER you have considered these things.

ATB
Robert

[godchild (godchild)]

joesdad, Do you think the original peoples (the native north and south Americans) in the bom were African descendents? Do you deny that the bom said some were 'cursed with a dark and loathsome skin'?
What is your understanding of Brigham Young's stand on blacks not holding the priesthood? Is what each prophet taught as important as what Joseph Smith taught?

[nulla (nulla)]

Joesdad;

So if as in the above " It is alleged that the Prophet Joseph said
-and I have no reason to dispute it-that it is because of
some act committed by them before they came into this
life.

And you state
"I wholly disagree with you that a person should be held responsible for the way another interprets their comments, that is a ridiculous idea. Just as ridiculous is not allowing a person the freedom to interpret the words they read. A persons predisposition to a particular view cannot be guarded against as you suggest."

then how can this be a blatantly doctored quote;
"Black people are black because of their misdeeds in the pre-existence." Three Degrees of Glory, LDS Apostle Melvin J. Ballard, p. 21"

Maybe not a misquote after all but just a persons interpretation of what someone said or wrote.

Nulla

[joesdad (joesdad)]

GC: No,No, this link is interesting: http://www.utlm.org/onlineresources/...dandblacks.htm and each prophet of God is as important for the reason he is called as another.

Nulla: If you put the reference after the words and put those words in quotes, it is commonly expected that the words in quotes are reproduced exactly as they appear in the passage/document referred to. To change the words, yet still use the quote marks and reference is blatant, and probably purposely misquoting. Simple English etiquette. Again I suspect this originates from our mates the Tanners - showing how careful those voicing criticism of the Church should be in checking their references.

BTW saw my consultant on Monday - the Crohn's is bad and I'm going to have to have another section of bowel removed, great fun! Apparently the surgeon this time does the rejoin differently from the last and should leave me with a better chance of reinfection taking longer to cause so much damage.(1st time was end to end, this time end of small bowel into side of Colon, yummy!)

Robert

[godchild (godchild)]

joesdad, May the Lord be with you during your surgery, and I hope your recovery is quick.
A quick mention for you. Sandra Tanner is the great-granddaughter of Brigham Young. Her husband was also a mormon. They do not just give their opinions about mormonism but show photocopies of the actual documents and books in their possession. You assume what they share has been doctored in an attempt to change what mormon prophets and others have said. What they say can be easily verified. You see, they are not the only ones who have the same documents. How strange to think that everyone who disagrees with mormon doctrine would change grammar and quotes the same way. The Tanners would not have been as successful in their endeavors if their papers had not been compared with others.
I will look at your link when I have more time. We are picking up my friend's sister at the airport at noon so I have a busy day.

[nulla (nulla)]

Robert
thats not great news for you. I do hope that this time round you have greater success with the removal procedure. Medicine is improving everyday so lets hope and pray that a cure for this terrible illness comes along.
You should be keeping yourself relaxed and stress free.... sites like this do not help with ones bloodpressure.
Keep us posted on your progress and most of all...Good luck.

Just thought after posting this that I say on one hand to relax and keep stress free in staying away from sites like this then request to keep us updated...

here is my email address if you want to let us know how you are and if you ever need to contact me for other matters I will always be happy to hear from you

nulla@aussiepartners.com.au



Neil

(Message edited by nulla on October 19, 2005)

[joesdad (joesdad)]

Nulla: Believe you me, this site is relaxing compared to work!!

Thanks very much for your words of concern, and advice, hey GC even you - It is really helpful to know that others around do care about your welfare - even though they only know you from words on a computer screen.

ATB to the both of you.

Robert

[godchild (godchild)]

Joesdad, I'm really not an evil ogre, though I may appear to be at times. I remember the suffering my nephew went through so my heart goes out to you.

[steelsword (steelsword)]

Hello all , i have been away due to the birth of my Daughter, Emma Grace.

6 pounds 5 ounces 18inches long.

Hope all is well.

Robert prayerfully hope you get better.

[nulla (nulla)]

Congratulations on the arrival of Emma Grace.

Wonderful news... hoping all is well with your wife.

The name is so close to my grandaughters, Emerald Grace

Neil

[godchild (godchild)]

steel, Congratulations!

[joesdad (joesdad)]

AND CONGRATS FROM ME TOO!!

[steelsword (steelsword)]

thanks to all, my wife suffered some minor post pardom depression, things are getting better though.


steel