Fostering Understanding

[liberalconvert (liberalconvert)]

If you would like to talk intelligently about your faith or have questions about mine (I am LDS)with no bashing or hateful words lets converse.

I am not going to prove my religion to you or disprove yours. Just would like to understand why there is so much hate.

[joesdad (joesdad)]

Liberalconvert: I have on several occassions, most notably when SP was ill, and the main posters here were GC and myself, attempted to bring these threads to discussion rather than the bearbaiting, snide comments and often outright lies posted.

If you have time have a look, and you can see the now and then sensible discussion does prevail, but those opposing our beliefs do not seem able to restrain themselves just that little more, and see that they are attcking principles and values that we hold not just dear, but as a substantial foundation to our lives - they mock and ridicule, but seem incapable of simply agreeing to disagree and allow us to correct their misinformation, or teach them the true principles we believe.

Of course they do come here to attack, and as we have seen even those appearing to show a willingness to discuss soon turn to bitter attacks on what is obvously someting they know little of, and understand less about.

I learnt for myself on my Mission that bashing will engender nothing but ill-feeling - I have purposely attempted to keep away from this and, as has SP starting ignoring those posts by Godchild as they contain noting but bitterness. Though I can't say that there have been times I have gone further than just correction.

I wonder how these discussions would proceed were they face to face!

Those opposing our views here really do believe that we have some book telling us what to say, or that despite the obviously individual ways that LDS can and do repsond to accusations we are somehow brainwashed. It will be interesting to see how you deal with posting here. I am sometimes concerned at how easily a simple comment may be read with more emphasis than intended, but I suppose that is where we rely on the spirit to guide us.

Purely out of interest, and to assist in terms of reference, what part of the world are you posting from?

[steelsword (steelsword)]

Liberalconvert,
Not evreyone comes here to attack as Joesdads
says. The problem is there is a serious devide
between orthodox christian teaching & mormon doctrine, I was a mormon for 23 years, I left the church once i began to research & read the history for myself. The 1st point is that when you don't trust the word of GOD in the Holy Bible, & you Say there are parts missing & only
our leaders or prophet can translate it, then
you can turn it into anything you want. I pray that you read the history of the Church & also compare the Doctrine to orthodox biblical teaching. The Bible teaches ONE GOD , LDS Multiple Gods. Start Reading all these threads,
Check the sources and see if we Lie as Joesdad
has accussed of us.

[solopilot (solopilot)]

LC:

Steel is right, not everyone comes to attack, but the majority DO.

You will discover that most of the anti-Mormons here claim to have been LDS for 20+ years. GC made this claim, then kept saying things which nobody who had been around Mormons would have said -- I'm not talking about doctrine, I mean about the day-to-day stuff. I kept expecting her to tell how her Sunbeam group passed the Sacrament.

I don't know about Steel, he doesn't say the truly absurd things which GC says, so maybe he really was a member. It doesn't matter -- the things that he says about doctrine and Christianity still don't fit the Bible.

One thing that you will discover is that the "Bible-says-it-all" Christians have a lot of doctrines not found in the Bible, and will condemn us for not sharing them. They also go ballistic when anyone suggests that the Bible isn't perfect.

Few of them actually know where the Bible comes from, and none has ever provided proof of accuracy, yet they will scream at us for not joining them in their irrational belief that each of the various, conflicting versions of the Bible is in itself 100% complete, accurate and inerrant.

[liberalconvert (liberalconvert)]

Steelsword,

Thank you so much for your concern and prayers. That tells me that you like me sincerely want people to know and understand Christ.

Like you, I studied church history but came to the opposite conclusion. Which I honestly think is okay. Before I was baptized I read anti-Mormon material as well as church sanctioned books. I also researched the history of the Roman Catholic Church, Lutherans and Protestant. ..FYI: I was raised Mississippi Born Again Bible Thumpin Baptist. All of these churches had different takes on doctrine and I found that as all of these churches grew, how can I say this,… had very colorful and interesting pasts. I fully accept that.

I think that I am able to deal with the LDS history because I know just as I do, they were learning line upon line, precept upon precept.

As for me, I do trust the Bible. I also believe in personal revelation and that God loves all of us. That is why I believe in the Book of Mormon that also testifies of Christ. If there were other scriptures that were found today, perhaps in China or Russia or Africa that said they had prophets of old that testified of Christ and his teachings I would want to read those also.

As for the multiple God thing…I know that I worship two at the moment God the Father and Christ. Christ because he was perfect and inherited all power and dominion like God the Father and of course God the Father himself because he is the creator of us and Christ.

As far as me becoming a God(ess), I really don’t think about it. I love the idea however that some day I can share in all that Christ had given to him by the Father- which of course is everything; if that will ever happen for a sinner such as me that will be sorted out many, many years from now. All I can do is my best and pray for grace and mercy.

I am curios, was it only those three things? Do you now longer believe in the priesthood, temples, the first vision, word of wisdom etc? What LDS teachings do you believe in still and if there are any why do you still believe them?

Look forward to your reply.

[liberalconvert (liberalconvert)]

SP and GC

Do you think these people that post things like, I was a Mormon for 20 years and then say things so crazy that it is obvious they were not, are trying to stir up hate or perpetuate myths about Mormons? Seems to me like that would be the case.

My family (Mom, Dad etc. I am not married and have no children yet) is not LDS and was very against me joining the church until they came to church with me and we talked about the doctrine. They thought some of the things I believe are a little out there but after I dispelled the myths they were okay and accepted that I still believed in Christ which is what most Christians say you need (and many the only thing you need) to be saved. So why do these Christians seem to despise us when we confess openly we believe Christ is our redeemer and Savior?

Anyway… SP you are correct about the Bible thing. I did not know the history of it or the Christian religion until I started to study seriously. I had the awesome chance to go to Jerusalem, Egypt and Rome for a few weeks and studied the history of the new and old testament (and walk in the same places as The Savior and the prophets of old.) It was awesome!

You two seems to have level heads and it is great to meet you.

P.S. Moved to Provo Utah from living in Montana and Arizona.

[solopilot (solopilot)]

LC:

Welcome to Utah (and FACTNet). Are you at the Provo school (the real BYU is in Hawaii)? I've been to Arizona and Montana.

Yes, the reason that most of the non-Mormons are here is to puff themselves up and spread hate. Some are here to actually discuss the issues between what they believe and what we believe, with an intent to understand better. It won't be hard to find out who is whom.

You have to understand, these "true" Christians have clamed the authority to say what is and is not Christianity. Thus, when we come along and don't agree with them, we are "heretic" and must be destroyed (out of love, of course).

If you go to the Walter R. Martin thread (in the main Cults & Sects area) you will see them saying that it's okay that Wally was lying, because he was exposing Mormonism as a lie!

Lying comes easy to the anti-Mormons. I visited a website a while back which had a discussion on some of the basic things that they could say to "prove" that they had been Mormons, in order to get credibility for their claims about the Church.

In fact, read the Wally Martin thing to find out more about the father of modern anti-Mormonism, the self-proclaimed "Bible Answer Man."

I envy you the chance to see Jerusalem.

"Level heads"? I think you slugged this with the wrong two names, I don't have a level head and Godchild is even less rational than I am! Maybe you meant Joesdad.

[liberalconvert (liberalconvert)]

SP,

Perhaps I did mean JD.

I have noticed in reading other threads on this site people don't come out and answer questions straight out. What is that?

One thread asked what version of the bible a person read and they wouldn't say. Why not? Seems a little strange...

What kind of things do they say to prove they were Mormon? And why do people seem so ready to believe any crazy thing they hear about the Church? I could say we are locked in the church all Sunday, painting ourselves blue while shaving our heads and people would believe it... In your experience, why are people like this? I guess I just don't understand because I wanted to know for myself...

[joesdad (joesdad)]

liberalconvert: The tactic you refer to is obviously a little underhanded. They often will discover an idea regarding what we believe, but being mostly unaware of what we actually believe, or unsure how to use it, they will dither aound the edges till they see a moment that they think "hey heres a doozy" and chuck in their new found knowledge.

This causes some problems so far as discussion goes. As they don't understand what they say, when we don't repond in the way they expect, they convince themselves what they have is really importnat and run of into the woods to chat with their buddies about it (who also don't know what they are talking about). Once they've decided on a plan of action to use their knowledge they explode, thinking were going to hold up our hands and condemn Mormonism for holding us bondage.

So once they've run with it for a while, and we've told them what LDS really believe, they tell us we don't know our own minds, then go grasping for the next bit of anti-LDS fiction.

It would help matters more if those that are ignorant of our beliefs did some honest research, and those that had been LDS were honest about what the church believes (it's up to them to turn away from it if they want) - but that is not the case.

You can see some such as egk and yaakov present a different message when we hear from them - no not pro-LDS, but clearly of different material than the mud slingers.

[godchild (godchild)]

Unlike mormons, we don't 'run into the woods, like js did with his buddies', but stay right out in the open where challenges are willingly (not secretly as mormons do) met with honest responses. Why is it mormons always claim we don't do honest research, and yet when questions are asked of mormons, they can only give name-calling instead of sharing their doctrines and beliefs.

[saralouise (saralouise)]

I can answer that question. I'm a new to the church as of 5 months ago. My family is very much against it. My grandfather is a retired baptist preacher, and my family truly believes that I am going to hell for believing the way I do. They are scared for my salvation. We have gone back and forth along these lines. Hatred is a product of fear and fear is brought by a lack of understanding.

[godchild (godchild)]

saralouise, Which books did the missionaries read to you from in the classes. Did they read from the Doctrine and Covenants, the Pearl of Great Price, Gospel Principles, and the Word of Wisdom, along with the Book of Mormon? If they only used the Book of Mormon, don't you find that is dishonest of them, as the Book of Mormon teaches ONE GOD, plural marriages an abomination.
Do you have any ideas about why they did not include the other 'standard works' which they consider 'scripture from God', by the 'mouthpiece of God'(prophets). Do you think it odd that they no longer call (to the public) the leaders prophets, but presidents? Ever wonder why?
I am sorry your family believes that you are going to hell. Did you accept Christ as your personal savior, repent, and be baptized before you learned of the Mormon Church? If so, this may be a life lesson for you as part of God's plan for your life. This is exactly what happened to me. Our God is a loving, forgiving God. If you live long enough to see the error of mormonism, your salvation is secure. The Holy Bible says the only unforgivable sin is grieving the Holy Spirit. In your new church, they teach a Holy Spirit, and a Holy Ghost, (two separate beings). Do you have a copy of Gospel Principles? Please read it asap and if you were a christian before joining mormonism, and pray for understanding, you will see mormonism is not of God.
Can you tell us how you first became involved in(or learned of)mormonism? As a new mormon, do your classes teach the Holy Bible first then the Book of Mormon? Or do you learn about the Book of Mormon and other lds teachings first which they confirm by using the Holy Bible?
Do not think your parents hate you now. Their fears are justified. Please, if you honor your parents (which the Holy Bible says we must) speak to them and ask specific questions as to why they are so fearful. They obviously love you or they would just say, 'go ahead, do what you wish, it is your choice'. Do you wonder why they have such a concern? Please think and pray on these things.

[godchild (godchild)]

joesdad, I would love to meet and talk to you face to face. My name is Vivian Hadden and I live in Rogue River, Oregon. It is such a small town, if you ever come this way, look me up. Most businesses know my name and how to contact me.
This is called 'putting up or shutting up' though I will not use those words. I will, however, say to you, the Holy Spirit guides me and protects me. I have no fear of any man/woman or entity. I have no earthly treasures I fear of losing and 'whether I live or die I am the Lord's'.
In fact, if you like and are willing to give your personal information, I will save to meet you half way. I am very serious about this. Are you? I have an unlisted phone no. for reasons having nothing to do with the internet but I am sure you can respect my unwillingness to publish it here.

[godchild (godchild)]

Solopilot, if you are watching, I make the same offer to you. Christians have been praying for your good health, if that is your reason for not posting. Perhaps Gemma can fill us in, in the spirit of friendship.