Landmark Education and Landmark Forum

[cyberoptik (cyberoptik)]

I would be happy to answer your questions . . .

First of all, Landmark Education is a FOR PROFIT corporation that is in the business of selling seminars. So when you talk about a "profit" for Landmark due to the fact that someones whole family has taken the seminar - there is nothing unusual about that. They all bought a seminar from the Landmark Education Corporation. Landmark is not a religious group or a non-profit organization; you give them money and they give you a seminar - period. No mystery there - and no different than any other of the millions of companys and consulting groups that sell seminars (time management, real estate etc)

Second, the person leading the Landmark Forum is paid. The volunteers are the people who are helping out with the details in the back (the sound, the handouts, nametags etc) - but there are only about 55 Landmark Forum leaders travelling all over the world - and they are surely well paid and taken care of. Each center in each city has a core group of people who are paid staff and then a volunteer program. Those people are well paid as well as the entire staff at the San Fransisco headquarters -- all paid.

People volunteer for various reasons - they actually consider volunteering another form of seminar (pretty brilliant marketing I think). Some volunteer just to hear the information again for free in the back of the room, some do it in order to be involved and around other people who share the same way of speaking and looking at things, and some do it because it is fun and social. Either way - there are plenty of volunteers and there are people who get paid.

There is a design team at Landmark who are "degree'd" (as you put it) and highly educated. A clinical psychologist, a doctor, a PhD in Philosophy are just a few of the "degree'd" people who actually put the seminar information together. Although there is no need to have anyone with any advanced degrees for Landmark, there is really nothing new there. They borrow information from various forms of psychology, philosophy, theory, physics, EST and even movies and books for entertainment plus they have some of their own stuff. There is nothing about the "ACTUAL MATERIAL" that will mess with your mind - it is all in the pedagogy, methodology and the way it is presented. You will hear people talking about whether or not you "get it" or you just "don't get it" -- this is what that refers to. No mystery . . . it simply means that if you read the notes and understand everything about riding a bike, then get on a bike, you will fall on your butt. You actually have to go beyond just understanding what is being said - through the time and experience of riding the bike etc. This is why all the "weird requests" about not leaving the room - etc etc. They are building something over the three day period. Some people refer to this as Large Group Awareness Training - which has no intrinsic good-or-evil attached to it. It depends on what they are training you in and leading you to. It is used positively in coaching situations, college (certainly in my graduate program), fraternities, churches, cults, KKK groups etc etc -- it is just a way of getting large groups involved in something - it can be for "good" or for "bad" intentions.

The company does hire people with degrees to actually lead the forum - but are more interested in a diverse background. I know forum leaders with degrees in Medicine, Business, Education and various other things. Most have had their own companies or businesses and have had various "successful" careers outside of Landmark. They are then trained for 3-7 years in Landmark itself before leading the forum. Once again, no different than any other seminar organization.

The bottom line is whether or not you think Landmark uses their pedagogy and methodology (they call it technology and others call it LGAT) for good intentions or for bad intentions. I did a great deal of research before taking the forum and I personally decided that they had honorable intentions. YES - they want you to sign up more people to take their seminars, duh! - it is how they stay in business. But they have other intentions as well - such as you having a great life, have great relationships, be bold and confident, have true compassion for people, make a difference in the world . . .the list goes on and on.

They don't ask you to give up your family, follow a leader, donate money (other than paying for your seminar which comes out to about $5.12 per hour), quit your job, have sex with anyone, leave your friends etc; there is no kool-aid to drink. As a matter of fact, contrary to cult-like behavior, they are all about you making a difference in the world and in your life OUTSIDE of Landmark. They don't claim to be the truth, the only way, the enlightened ones, they make no claims on the afterlife, don't concern themselves with beliefs or religions . . . . that is just not what they are up to.

So in keeping with answering your questions, if you "play their game" for the 3.5 days and let your guard down just a bit (God forbid) - you will be a different person at the end of the seminar. The degree to which it impacts you is kinda up to you. So, you might get a call - yes.

There is no mystery to what they are doing . . .if you read some of my earlier posts - it is easily explained and understood. (although understanding it doesn't actually produce the results - that is what most people are uncomfortable with)

According to our society today EVERYTHING messes with your mind - Jerry Springer makes people hate trailer trash; video games cause violence, porn causes sex abuse, religion causes violence, republicans are to blame for this, democrats are to blame for that, - TV corrupts, South Park is causing children to swear --- . . . . . .it never ends and never will.

100's of thousands of people take the Landmark Forum every year worldwide - there have been less than a dozen cases of people reporting mental issues after taking it. To be honest, more people had mental breakdowns in my graduate program in university.

Hope this helps - just remember, everyone has an opinion - of which I am just one. But the loudest opinions are always those who 'take issue' with something.

[jacksf (jacksf)]

She managed to spin everything I said and, in the end, strongly hinted how I did not trust her. This was just slightly insulting considering she is not a part of my social set. Is she told by Landmark to speak this way to people? If so, its a mistake. At times Landmark leaders interact with participants in a direct psychological manner to enable participants to become aware of blind spots which are holding them back. They call this "coaching."

After the programs Landmark graduates are often tempted to try it at home--give Landmark-style coaching to friends and acquaintances--usually with the offputting results you describe. However, Landmark explicitly and repeatedly tells graduates not to do that. When graduates try that with me, I tell them I am not interested in being coached.

I can't see the value of spending 3 days in a progressively sleep-deprived state. It will not make me a better person or help me cope with past issues. It will, however, quickly wear me down physically and then mentally. Unless you have a long commute to and from the Forum, you can get seven hours of sleep or more on the Friday and Saturday nights of the program. For most adults it's a stretch, but not a hardship. People grow in lots of ways and often it is when they are challenged to go beyond what they do in their ordinary lives. That's true in life, and not just with Landmark. I recommend considering the Forum as an adventure that one gets psyched for, rather than something that happens to you and wears you down.

I'm not cool with Landmark's connection to 'est' either. Landmark is basically Phase II of est. I took est in the seventies so I have some basis for comparison. Much of the material is the same as, or even identical to, what was found in the est training. They have added some new distinctions about language from existential philosophy. They have smoothed out a lot of the rough edges, e.g, they are not as confrontive as they were in the est days, participants get more sleep and are not restricted from using the bathroom outside the scheduled breaks. In my opinion the Landmark folks learned a lot from the excesses of the est days and cleaned up their act considerably.

[jacksf (jacksf)]

I dont understand how a 3 1/2 day seminar change somebodys life so fast. It's a good question. Say what you will about Landmark, they do deliver a heckuva program. The Forum and the Advanced Course can really catapult people into amazing experiences from which they make big changes in their lives. Some people come to overvalue the experience in my opinon and Landmark becomes the center for how they see and do everything.

For a fascinating account of one man's Landmark experience, read http://www.xs4all.nl/~anco/mental/randr/kirk.htm.

[anonymous7 (anonymous7)]

My wife went to the Landmark Forum now she is really twisted in her thinking. They teach on broad subjects where everyone draws their own conclusion. There is no check to see what each student is about to take from the seminar into the world. What I'm saying is since there are no checks and balances from the discussions, everyone attending will select only what they think they need to fix their perceived problem. Then they plug the perceived solution in where ever they think it fits. The dangerous is that these are not real head doctors dealing in one on one-person therapy. They don't have any way of knowing if this mental motivation is being applied correctly in theory or if they are making existing problems more complex. Each student will interpret what he or she wants from the subject matter. My wife returned from these seminars talking like some kind of heartless cold person. She began blaming me for all her worldly unhappiness. The damage had been done after her second class and after she had spent about $2,500 to financing attendance. What I didn’t know I learned through her actions. Landmark don't teach anything about morals or ethics but they did teach her, it's all about the forward charge no matter what don’t let baby, milk, husband, or nothing stand in your way of happiness and what they call success. It's all about you and what you want in life and to push everything else to the side. She came back so changed that I don't know if I can deal with her anymore. She now say things to me meaningful only to her like "Who are you trying to be, or that is what you tell yourself" maybe if I ask for a cup of coffee. She comes across as some robot that has been programmed to do someone else’s bidding. I don’t know what buttons they press in her mind that causes her to totally zone me out even if I was trying to save her in a critical situation. From my point of view Landmark has very dangerous seminars because of their intensity and their lack of knowledge of each individual.

[garmjosh (garmjosh)]

JACKSF: I'm wondering why you are picking apart my thoughts? I'm not posting here to get into a debate with you or anyone else. You took many courses from Landmark and liked it. Fine. Great. It looks like you're just trying to sell me on its merits and pointedly address my negative comments. This is not why I registered to have the privilege of posting on this board. You're coming across as a salesman for Landmark.....

[jacksf (jacksf)]

JACKSF: I'm wondering why you are picking apart my thoughts? I'm not posting here to get into a debate with you or anyone else. You took many courses from Landmark and liked it. Fine. Great. It looks like you're just trying to sell me on its merits and pointedly address my negative comments. This is not why I registered to have the privilege of posting on this board. You're coming across as a salesman for Landmark.... This is a bulletin board. People say things; people respond to things. That's how it works. Not only that, you asked questions about what Landmark tells graudates to do and I answered. I am not particularly interested in debating you.

As to my being a salesman--I have said good things about Landmark and I have said not-so-good things about Landmark. I'm not entirely crazy about Landmark; however, IMO it's not nearly as bad as much of what is said about it. I find Landmark an interesting phenomenon and I enjoy writing about it on occasion.

[garmjosh (garmjosh)]

If you weren't looking for some kind of debate, you wouldn't be highlighting my comments in bold black fonts.

Its a bulletin board? Really? Thank you for sharing this with me.

As far as I'm concerned, you're starting to come across as a "closer" for the work that R. failed at. Some of your comments are presumptuous including those pertaining to the ridiculously long hours demanded by the Forum. Do you know anything about me? How I might or might not be able to function getting excessively small amounts of sleep over a 72 hours period? How I feel about this matters more than anything else.

You misinterpreted one statement as question (not questionS. No plural - so don't try to spin things and blame me. You're taking it upon yourself to act as a informal marketing representative...its not even remotely transparent.

I was very put off by the character attacks used by Landmark in order to recruit new students. You haven't swayed me at all. In fact, much the opposite.}

[jacksf (jacksf)]

anonymous7 -- Sorry to hear that your marriage has hit a bump now that your wife has done the Forum. That happens. Many people go overboard with Landmark initially but settle down after a while. So don't give up! Also, you can make her Forum experience work for you.

If she is blaming you, tell her that's a "racket" and she should know better from the Forum.
If she is giving you Landmark advice and asking Landmark leading questions, tell her you don't want to be "coached" and remind her that Forum leaders tell participants to work on themselves with Landmark technology, not their friends and loved ones.
If you feel like she's making you wrong, let her know. Making people wrong is also a "racket" in Landmark terms.

Landmark grads can be very direct and seemingly pushy. But remember, you can always say NO and by Landmark standards they are supposed to respect that. You don't even have to explain your reasons. Just tell them that it was your "choice."

Tell her you love her and that you want a relationship that works for both of you. Take care.

[jacksf (jacksf)]

garmjosh --
* I highlighted your words to distinguish them from mine.
* The Forum ends by midnight, sometimes sooner, and starts the next day at 9am, giving participants nine or more hours to get home and rest. As I said, for *most* people that's not a hardship. Perhaps it is for you.
* If I have given offense, I apologize. I really have no investment in whether you do the Forum. I did care about clearing up misconceptions about the Forum.

[sarabande2 (sarabande2)]

Hi,

Could someone who has done the Forum recently confirm that there are opportunities early in day 1 to leave and get a full refund? I'm registered this weekend am getting a strong feeling that this isn't for me right now. I'd like to know that if I go at the beginning, I can have the benefit of getting my money refunded if my early experience with it confirms that it isn't for me right now.

Thanks!

[sarabande2 (sarabande2)]

I just got an answer to my question from someone who was involved with Landmark for a long time - that yes, indeed, it is true that you can get a full refund at the first break on Day 1.

[seewithlove (seewithlove)]

Hi All,

I am currently enrolled in the Self Expression and Leadership Program and I am neither here to support nor detract from the Landmark Programs (although I may do both :-)

I am looking for information on a topic that I'd like to discuss with the leaders in my area. Are you aware of philanthropic ventures supported by Landmark Education (I know other companies create charitable foundations / make donations to their communities)? And, perhaps, do you know of the history of the "Community Projects" model that is exercised within the SELP course (the one I'm in) - I'm seeking more information regarding the use by Landmark Education, LLC of this work. They've asked us to give them complete details of ALL press that our projects receive - that they are judged internally by the amount of press created in this program. Why?

[ash_kap (ash_kap)]

Hi guys,
phew !! there is some real hot discussion out here. It all seems like such a big deal for anyone to either be for or against the forum. I am someone who has been associated with this work since the past year or so. In this span of time I have participated in the entire curriculum for living offered by Landmark Education. Although I am a great fan of the technology used at this education, still I am appreciative of one simple fact, that all that it provides is for you to be able to see your life through a new perspective. It helps us break the barriers past has imposed on our lives and simply enables us to break those barriers and move ahead in life. At every stage of it, one is left enabled to choose how he or she wishes to lead his life from there on.

There is absolutely nothing wrong in those who have not liked anything they have interpreted about this forum. My only request to such people is to first attend the basic forum and get first hand info into what it has to offer. Believe me it does not eat you up and it most certainly does leave you enabled to make a choice in what kind of life you want to be leading.
seewithlove - I sincerely hope your querries have been answered by now considering you have now been through with a major part of your course. Still not clear ; do post again.}}

[wanda114 (wanda114)]

I am presently participating in the Forum in Action series; that’s the 10weeks you get to put into practice what was taught over the 3 days. For the earlier person about “can you get your money back on first day�, well, it was way too early for me to make the decision, and I didn’t like the fact it wasn’t offered later instead of within the first two hours. Now having said that, I chose to stay regardless as I made a commitment to myself at the time that leaving before I really understood what was offered would only lead me to stop and start programs and never know if the depth have depth of understanding. Learning comes from the deeper understanding of how to practice what’s preached... Im a student at Uni and know that its taken 4 years to finally have the penny drop and a lot of reading and discussion to start getting my career, and like Uni, Landmark doesn’t give me miracles, it simply gives me tools of a trade. My trade!

I don’t think The Forum is something I want to continuously upgrade and do many additional courses in, but I like some of the assertions they purported. They came from a range of philosophies and psychologies and blended many together to give a broad set of tools. Mind you, the person running our forum in Action Series says its not a psychology or philosophy but I gather as this man was telling us he works in the legal profession, perhaps he is less knowledgeable in that area. As my background has a blend of psychology and philosophy and I definitely state, it is exactly philosophies and psychologies and that’s why it grabs our interest and can make a difference depending on how we interpret the information.

Im not a true convert and recognise in the discourse (Jargon) of Landmark Education I could be running a ‘racket’ or using my ‘strong suit’ to prevent me achieving in an area of my life I would want to have, but heh, I got good things from it, met some wonderful people, can discuss on a different level with folks that have also done:
The Forum
Teaching (my new profession)
Cycling folk
These are now areas I have some expertise in let alone multiple other areas…. There is nothing wrong with just enjoying the knowledge, taking from it what you believe is useful and earnestly enjoying the discomfort that occasionally comes with risking thinking about certain things you’d rather leave behind, but know will come back and bite you on the bottom if you don’t get a handle on it.

On a thoughtful note, when people divulge, as many did on that weekend, about family abuse, business crashes, marriages ending, wanted relationships etc. For those that need to divulge a lot about themselves this is a fairly safe environment and if you need to ‘tell all’, don’t feel too uneasy. I preferred to keep my cards close to me, I just didn’t need to tell everyone but that doesn’t mean I hide things. I recognised that some people needed to “tell� and I just wanted to learn tools. I have many friends that I ‘divulge too’ if that’s needed. I don’t have secrets about my life I hide from others, but that just means those that have felt they must ‘keep it secret’, have the opportunity to be open if they so choose.

When we all take down our usual social barriers it’s a genuinely lovely environment to be in. Of the 240 people in that room, all of us were wiling to be open and felt no risk of being devalued by ourselves or others for the ways we do things or approach things. That was worth $340 in itself. Oh one last thing…$380 is a huge sum of money for me as I am both a student and single parent, I don’t undervalue for how much money that can be for some attendees. To me it was worthwhile, Good luck

[wanda114 (wanda114)]

oops Was $380 ...sorry for confusion of my above posting today

[anotherdope]

It is DEC 2007== Two years later from the last post and nothing has changed except maybe the premium. $550 to Landmark Education. It was recommended by my primary care doctor which I do plan on having a long talk with at some point even though she said it was more of a friendly recommendation I specifically asked what bearing it might be to religious or cult and she said only that they sell hard.

Regardless, my research came from their website—It should have occurred to me too google the course but I am a little idealistic and paid more attention to what was being said versus potentially how it could all be executed.

The concepts Landmark delivers, although they bought the EST intellectual property they said, were concepts== not new== Context, perception vs reality, FREUD out the butt, Hildegard I could go on and on...



TWO SCARY THINGS ABOUT THE PROGRAM:

1. BREAKING THEM DOWN: Their technique to allowing individuals a breakthrough is to individually as people talk about their lives (very pop psych, Dr. Phil 20 min breakthroughs) break them down through their fears and Freudian damages from family etc. A) There is no hired trained psych help on staff if someone literally discovers something that drives them over the edge. B) We are all listening (no HIPAA)—in our group we had brother rapes, father rapes, I'm gay, I feel responsible for killing someone == The amount of pysch unsound people in this room was unfathomable. The meditation they did was all fear based, again trying to break you down so they may build you back up but in a most irresponsible way with way too many people in too short of time period if this is what you are going to do. So the point is NEGATIVE, FEAR, DYSFUNCTIONAL based in order to "cleanse" --- again not a problem in a psych or therapists office controlled professional environment.

2. RECRUITMENT/MANIPULATION: All of the principles in the 22 hours I allowed myself to participate were basic. Let go of the past so you do not repeat your future. (hello Freud howya doin?), we are passive aggressive in our behavior so we do not have to "DEAL" with someone or an issue in our lives-- they call this “rakets” you set up. Your point of view is a filter on a reality that basically does not exist in the first place... perception, and how giving things context believing in an over arching goal or mission in life makes us psych powerful. ALL REPACKAGED IDEAS. === BUT=== at every turn they used these ideas to say the only way you can really have a breakthrough with these concepts and idea is if you recruit. RECRUIT RECRUIT.

Many others in the 100+ group were brought on Tuesday night (actually the person that said I should go told me to come, but I had a date so I probably could have saved myself $550)


Anyway=== many people stood up (5 people in the first 15 hours) during the recurring recruiting pitches throughout the day saying Landmark was selling too hard, that they felt pressured at Tuesday nights, this is why Landmark has the cult image etc etc. The first guy-- said on one of these Tuesday nights that he was actually followed to the bathroom. Now it was being set up to say 'your perception of being stalked and hounded is not the reality only your perception' however when he brought up the bathroom, that the guy followed him to the bathroom, the speaker gave in and said 'you should have brought that up to someone one because we are not supposed to recruit in the bathroom.'

[anotherdope]

The next 4 people sprinkled throughout the recruiting efforts she shut down immediately using the tactic I described above. You can not trust yourself, look the way you have been operating incorrectly all these years that we fixed here and now you are going to say that they were stalking or pressuring you, "I AM NOT GOING TO LET YOU GUYS GET AWAY WITH THIS." At that point. Instead of screaming and yelling how messed up
it was for her to manipulate someone who was not psych sound in the first place, I got up and briskly walked out the door.

get home --- realize too I am gravely sick—eyes watering, coughing horribly and even after I told the director I did not feel it was fair of me to subject others in the course to my sickness that it would make them feel uncomfortable (forget about me) she said 'don't put words in other people's mouth'.

Anyway, a message awaited me at home and said 'we noticed you walked out of the room please call us back.' I called and said, 'your concepts are good (I had not put the extreme negativity all together yet, I just thought at this point it was to an excess) but the cramming it down everyone's throat and then manipulating them into thinking you are not doing that is why I can not longer be a part of your course.'

Response: "Do you usually quit in the rest of your life?"

Me: "Excuse me? When a boundary has been crossed, yes ma’m I do quit." 'I thought about going to the microphone and defending these people but I thought it would potentially hurt those working through issues and also be a waste of time not productive even if I did want to help you do the right thing.' I continued:
'The fact that 5 people in 15 hours stood up and said the same thing leads me to believe at least 5 more people were thinking the same thing which is 10% of your audience and you refused to accept that you could in any way be doing things differently or that their point of view could be valid-- agree to disagree kind of thing.'

I also said, sales 101 says have a little bit of empathy (I should not have told her this because it helps her manipulate). Don't tell me I am wrong and a quitter because I will close up immediately on the fact that you don't care about me only your agenda.
Say, 'I understand how you feel, other's have voiced this concern but...'

I wanted to jump through the phone. But she said, well, considering you agree with the content why would you let our sales keep you from taking advantage of the material. I said, I know I am cutting off my nose to spite my face but honestly I cannot watch other people be manipulated. She then asked me to come back down and although I regret it I don't only because it solidified my opinion. Later was the negative meditation and then again I was even worse eyes puffy
miserable people were scooting away from me and not one Landmark person came up to see how I was.

[anotherdope]

At the end of the night recruiting turned into a bonus homework (I think because of me): realize this is 10pm
at night and they want you to call people regardless of the hour. "Raise your hands if you are going to do
the bonus homework. Call as many people as you can until you get 3 people to come on Tuesday night." She made that close at least 3 times three different ways--- 'Some of you want to play your own game. You
want to call people but you don't want to tell me, raise your hands if you feel this way--- promise me that you will call 1, 2, 3 or 4 people until get 3
people to come in.' NOW 'still others of you are scared, you are afraid to call because it's late raise your hands, promise me you are going call.....' you
get the picture-- I would have thrown up if I would have been so sick
already.

I walked out that evening numb because at every moment I was trying to give the benefit of the doubt and at
every moment good intentions (that's what I was looking for) were just not present. They called me the next morning morning asking me where I was and I did not answer the phone.

I do not believe the content is all completely hogwash but the delivery and execution is dangerous.

There were some really smart people in the room all searching for meaning and I applaud every one of those people doing the right thing with life. But for a group or organization to manipulate that hunger into forcing others to break down and then recruit with what they re-build is unacceptable.

I consider myself one of the most open-minded individuals on the face of the earth. Even to these people I could see if they changed their ideas from being a trap to free thinking I would joust among the best any day and become a better person for it, but
seriously this was TOOOO much.

PLEASE CONSIDER HEAVY RESEARCH before going or paying for this course.